Branden Flasch

[00:00:02] Good morning everyone. Thanks for joining on this episode of Grid Connections. Today we got a really special guest. I feel like I am a person who

[00:00:11] Probably drives more EVs more than just about anyone except for one of our guests today. I would say it's probably a random flash or Kyle Connor that maybe beats me annually in

[00:00:22] EV Miles Driven and so I'm really excited to have Branden Flasch from the Branden Flasch YouTube channel on today. To kind of talk with us about his insights about the EV industry, EV products and EV charging in general.

[00:00:35] This is really exciting because I followed his channel and watch a lot of his episodes for quite a while.

[00:00:39] And this is the first time I've got to have him on our show but he's also been someone that some of our listeners have really wanted to have on here as well. So I'm really excited. Thank you for joining us today, Brandon.

[00:00:50] Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. In the rare chance that anyone listening to this isn't familiar with what you do or your YouTube channel.

[00:01:01] Can you give us just kind of a quick little overview of what the Branden Flasch channel is all about and what you kind of try and help viewers learn about EVs.

[00:01:11] Yeah, so I started the YouTube channel about three years ago during the COVID times that I was just wanting to drive and explore and get out and make videos was kind of inspired by my call from out of spec.

[00:01:21] And I was wrote tripping all around the country and my then 2015 Tesla Model S and I put about a hundred dollars miles on that car in about 18 months, 60,000 which were in 2020 alone.

[00:01:34] Had free-emoted super charging hotels and everything were really cheap. I actually traveled full time for nine months, meaning I had no home anywhere. I wasn't living out of my Tesla but I was going between places that I was living in my Tesla.

[00:01:48] So I was spending like a month or so in different AirBmbs I was getting month-long AirBmbs days for roughly a thousand dollars which that's crazy.

[00:01:57] And kind of just exploring the old country. It was kind of a finding myself period of sorts of my life and that's why I started the YouTube channel.

[00:02:06] People started watching it, they were kind of living by carously through it during times that most people weren't traveling but I was traveling albeit carefully.

[00:02:15] And then as I kind of settled down in Charlotte North Carolina, I got a day job in the charging industry. I continued making videos.

[00:02:22] These days are a little bit more about vehicle reviews. I've had eight electric vehicles now as well as a lot of charging infrastructure and things like that. So kind of educate people, educate those in the industry and hopefully maybe make some consumer advice out of it.

[00:02:39] Well that's great and I think just to kick it off, eight different electric vehicles is pretty impressive especially since what is it's really only been a decade since the leaf and the model I see them came out.

[00:02:50] So you got me beat there too but what I guess for anyone listening who doesn't know what are you driving these days.

[00:02:57] So right now I have a 2023 Tesla Model Y all-wheel drive. That's the official trim name of the model I that I have and it's not a long range, it's the standard range unofficially but it's the model Y that has the 4680 structural battery pack that has now been discontinued but was made out of Austin Texas.

[00:03:18] So yeah, I mean you do have a bit of a rare car. I know it seems like overall it's been before that. I mean the ones I was watching a lot of episodes of was when you had the Rivian which big fan of those.

[00:03:30] But it is really interesting to see the dichotomy. I mean do you find it now more boring driving the Tesla just because obviously it's less powerful but it just seems like you've run into a lot less of the issues that were pretty well.

[00:03:43] Consistent with your previous car. Yeah, I made a tweet last night I drove out to Greenville South Carolina to go check out a Rolls Royce Spector with got a Honda from out of spec.

[00:03:54] Yeah, that for the evening and we met at the Lutch Prime Air 끝ation so I charged there and I do not miss that life one bit.

[00:04:03] It took three attempts to get charging, which was like two minutes before or between a rival and actually charging whereas every single supercharger I've ever been to aside from maybe a handful of times and thousand plus times of supercharged.

[00:04:18] You arrive you plug in your charging and less than times like this and you don't even think about it. I plug in I walk away. I'll maybe check the app to make sure it's starting mostly just to see how much time I have but I know it's charging every time without issue.

[00:04:32] Yeah, I wish them well I wish you would work out finally.

[00:04:38] I guess I was just last year. I did a road trip from here in Central Oregon out to Sue City, Iowa, all places but that was about the safe 1600 miles and most of that was supercharging and there was one location that's like you know what I'm going to give it a try because it was a level two supercharger so those kind of top out at 150 and there was recently an electrify America.

[00:05:02] I think there was maybe four stalls if that but that had just been put in with the larger 350 kilowatt thing and I had the adapter says like you know what I'll mix it up I'll give it a try.

[00:05:13] I don't even want I think there's so many great EVs out there and I know a lot of people that road trip in them but this I think I've tried it a few different times but this was kind of the perfect example that it took me probably.

[00:05:28] Close to 10 minutes like I remember even documenting it and I just can believe how long it took me just to get the stupid app and I already have like the past and everything but to get the electrify America charger stall just to start charging and it turned out.

[00:05:43] Two of them were broken I finally get it to charge and of course I've been road tripping and I think I've been the car for probably about three or four hours and so like.

[00:05:53] I was so spoiled with the supercharger thing where it's just like yellow car plug it in run to the bathroom and so here I'm in the middle of I think self to code at this point.

[00:06:02] I'm like I have to go the bathroom so badly I'm probably just jumping all around looking like an idiot trying to get the stupid app thing and I plug it in it finally starts when I was like thank god I sprint over make it to the bathroom.

[00:06:14] Then it's like come out of the bathroom I get an notification that the charging had stopped and then I go back and I was like are you kidding me and then I go back and this randomly this the site had.

[00:06:27] Now kind of deep powered to only the chargers working at 50 kilowatts.

[00:06:31] I have no idea what had happened what went wrong and I just had screwed and went over to the level two not even a mile away so it really wasn't a big issue and at that point with the charge curve it didn't really matter anyway.

[00:06:46] But it was just like every time I just try and given the benefit of the down it looks like from some of the stuff I've watched from Kyle late late maybe it's gone better but I am I am really excited that.

[00:06:58] Good or bad they're going to the charging sound so they can at least use super chargers and kind of get a lot of these gremlins making EVs just a lot easier for more people to live with.

[00:07:11] I mean, I have a my daily is actually a long range model why and then my other car of all things is a 1987 land rover defender 90 and it sucks I mean it goes through it sucks I mean actually it's awesome it's awesome in the fact that it's not fast but it goes the same speed over everything.

[00:07:34] And then the downside is it goes through about as much gas and oil as like a small African country about every way. And so we now mostly use it for going up the mountain or maybe hiking and taking the dogs the dog bark but. It's so frustrating that.

[00:07:52] If people want to drive EVs it's got to be better than a gas station and a gas station isn't that great and experience but I can tap.

[00:07:59] Start filling and I I'll give maybe it's not going to take me as quick but at least getting it to start up all have to do is tap.

[00:08:07] Open the thing plug it in and or plug it put the gas and also it starts going and when you can't even just get the tap to go and work. That to me is just like such an unfortunate user or user experience that is really hindering.

[00:08:26] More people from going EVs I think and I really think if you want something to replace another technology it doesn't have to be as good it has to be better. And I really do hope the.

[00:08:35] Tesla experience whether that's through tests or just more cars or handling like a plug and charge technology where you can just plug it and walk away that's really going to be the thing that catches on but. That's enough about me kind of.

[00:08:47] Being a long-winded and we're having you on this show so let's kind of talk about something other things that I'd really like to kind of get your thoughts on because you have so much exposure to the actual DC fast charging infrastructure.

[00:08:59] And like some of these kind of gremlins and surprises is to what makes it a lot harder.

[00:09:04] I mean, I'm sure you follow it to there's like the super charged on info website among other websites that are always kind of listing permits of new fast chargers going in all over the place and.

[00:09:16] We've had some other guests on and they've really talked about sometimes the financial lean center side to install but I'm really interested to hear the. Other side of it, which is the physical construction getting the approval from the utilities some of the issues you running with transformers.

[00:09:30] Right now what is it you're seeing from the physical implementation side that are counted the biggest. And the other side of the, I think, the services to getting more fast chargers online quickly.

[00:09:45] It's very regional and it also depends on the operator because some of the operators they can mitigate a lot of the challenges with prior planning so there are across the industry there's pretty heavy supply chain challenges still not so much on the chargers themselves but definitely on the distribution.

[00:10:03] And the other side of the way that we're going to do is to make sure that the transfer for the transformers even just construction crews and just general labor availability. All of those things kind of have limiting factors, but you can mitigate them to different.

[00:10:16] That if it's essentially however you still have a critical path generally of what your limiting factors are for any given site. For example, like in the south east region of the United States it's pretty easy to build a charging station.

[00:10:30] Of course it depends on like specific city and age, share authority having jurisdiction that's whoever's issuing the permit to be able to build it.

[00:10:39] But given funding availability and equipment availability I could take a site from picking that site and then having it built and open to the public probably less than three months however if you try to do that. Well, for the idea you're probably looking at closer to two years.

[00:10:54] So I think I know some of the reasons but I'd love to hear your reasons why that there's such a big delta in that timeline.

[00:11:01] Yeah, the utilities are pretty challenging, but that's very, very, I would say some utilities have transfers on hand but may or may not be easy to work with on kind of the upfront tasks of actually working with them on the engineering to determine whether there's capacity available.

[00:11:20] Even just having them look at the engineer drawings from the firm that you're working with so the operator that's actually building the site.

[00:11:28] They're usually having an engineering firm make the plan to the site overall you can then make some assumptions about how the utilities service will be built on that site.

[00:11:38] But you still have to work with the utility to actually confirm that those assumptions are correct and that it works on their side because a lot of that data on capacity availability.

[00:11:48] Under reality things like that it's not public data even though it maybe should be in some areas it is to some levels like for example ever source in the northeast they actually have a.

[00:12:01] I don't know if it's public but it's available to customers tool that you can check different circuits and different capacities in different areas. So if you're a Tesla or any other.

[00:12:12] Charged one operator that you're considering different sites maybe even within two blocks of each other you can see if one site has more capacity available or if there's capacity across the road but not on the other side of the road.

[00:12:23] And have to trench and frost and that can be a major break factor for a lot of those timelines and for cost of those installations. Interesting so.

[00:12:34] Yeah, you just put a lot out there but it's a good and it's kind of funny to say that because my wife is actually works in.

[00:12:43] She's lawyer for a few different renewable energy firms and so that's a common thing she has to deal with his transmission lines and also just making sure that the data is kind of aware where there's actually capacity on the grid and I know I believe I think it's actually.

[00:12:58] I might be a part of the IRA or another part of legislation that was recently passed I should actually be making that easier. How much clarity that adds we will see and how soon that happens but with. With that.

[00:13:15] What do you think is the most as kind of like someone who's worked in the industry and an EV driver what do you think is the ideal.

[00:13:22] Kind of charging experience or like what is kind of the ideal charging location I know in some of your videos you'll you've documented like the some of the newer Tesla sites and the really large ones but.

[00:13:35] When you think of like when you're designing when what do you see is kind of the ideal site and kind of features that a love other. Charge point operation should be really thinking about.

[00:13:44] Yeah, I think it kind of depends on what audience you're targeting if you're looking at a quarter or so you wanted to be as easy on an off the interstate as possible.

[00:13:53] You want to be looking at access from that interstate proximity to interstate is important but if the interchange you're feeding off of the interstate from or if you only have return access one direction.

[00:14:05] It doesn't matter how close the it is if it's annoying is have to get on and off from. So you have to look kind of bigger picture and that's why I think site visits are very important and not everyone does them.

[00:14:15] So you can actually experience what it would be like to go to that site to charge and then actually continue on and route.

[00:14:21] But for more urban or suburban sites, you still want to be off of kind of a main thoroughfare but you also want to be near other things for people to do it.

[00:14:30] So along an interstate a truck stop is convenience store things like that are probably a really good fit that may not be as good of a fit in a urban or suburban location. However, those sea store operators generally have truck stops in the middle of a city.

[00:14:49] They often have good locations but they may not have space to build.

[00:14:53] So you're often looking at kind of like shopping complexes, you may have a stable grocery store or Walmart target something like that with other shops around it closer to a city center or in a suburban area.

[00:15:06] That you can actually spend a half an hour especially if you're like an apartment dweller or your multi family or you just don't have home charging for whatever reason.

[00:15:14] You're probably going that are relatively frequently so the gas station may not be the place you want to be but you may want to have your favorite.

[00:15:20] Fast casual restaurant may want to have your grocery store that you go to weekly anyway and you can kind of form habits around that. This for example when I lived in Minnesota there was actually a high view which is a kind of regional grocery store.

[00:15:35] And with also like put restaurants inside of it and they had a lot of super chargers at those and it was actually a mile from my house in Minneapolis and I'd already installed home charging so I was good.

[00:15:45] But if that had opened like four months prior or if I had known it was coming for us prior I probably wouldn't have even bothered installing charging at home because I had free charging and it was a mile away.

[00:15:57] And I went there for grocery shopping anyway so wouldn't have been inconvenient at all to me. So you think the archetypes that you're looking at for those locations and kind of side hosts.

[00:16:09] Yeah, that's kind of interesting and I know professionally you've worked pretty closely with some of the traditional gas store canes.

[00:16:18] Are you seeing that that is still coming early days interest for some of these larger I know the big announcement a week or two ago was kind of BP was buying a hundred million dollars worth of super chargers from the Tesla are you see that.

[00:16:33] That starting to change or is it still kind of some of the more forward thing in players in that space that are kind of just putting their feet into adding chargers to their chains.

[00:16:45] I'd say it's pretty very and there's kind of a variety of strategies depending on the sea store operator so I actually worked for circle k actually just ended my employment there announcement to come on that.

[00:16:58] But I built site or I built turning stations at circle k sites across North America and circle k is actually an operator in the Scandinavian markets and it's a market leader there with believe the latest numbers around 1600 ports.

[00:17:13] And close to 30 or 40% of the network in Norway has charging on it so no it's I'm seeing some of those sites it's impressive how they've rolled them out and to what level that coming in down there even I think have some locations that they've actually got.

[00:17:27] And they're just locations which is it's not the norm but there are a couple I believe that are that way.

[00:17:37] Yeah and newer stores there being built with charging being more of the focus and yeah liquid field being secondary essentially because that's just the way that that market is shifting.

[00:17:47] It's kind of the opposite of where we're at right now in the North American market where liquid fuel is still the bread and butter and adding even charging is kind of a auxiliary offer it's kind of like offering.

[00:17:59] And that's kind of a little bit less compelling business case behind it so that's kind of where some of that challenge comes in but you also have like travel centers of America which is on my VP they partnered with a lot of my commercial which is a much fine America's kind of.

[00:18:17] Third party owned operated network branch they also did the Tesla deal as you mentioned the hundred million dollars worth of hardware you have pilot flying data partnering with EVGO extend which is EVGO's third party owned operated branch.

[00:18:32] And then you also have loves travel stops and they have their truly unbranched so they're doing some stuff as well. So basically all of the major sea store operators are doing something.

[00:18:43] But it's to varying levels you also have wall on sheets kind of regional or ice co-splinters they partnered with both the lunch by America and Tesla primarily Tesla to add EV charging and.

[00:18:55] They all have a little bit different reasons but owning an operating network this is or I think is probably the better the long term strategic play but we'll see how it shakes out for players like while on sheets that they're just the site host for third party network.

[00:19:11] And now are you familiar with how those arrangements usually work is it just a common normal land lease that Tesla has for when they do like a deal with the sheets or a while, uh, right's just a least. In her animal. Gotcha.

[00:19:26] Yeah, I've seen some comments from some of the executives on some of these different companies and it seems to be pretty varying. I saw one that was a crazy taste that the owner of the site host actually paid Tesla a dollar per vehicle that charged.

[00:19:43] Did you imagine how crazy of a deal that was but they probably didn't think anything of it. Right. I'm always still coming out ahead by extra sales as a result in the store.

[00:19:53] Oh, for sure. I mean, I am a big proponent of that after you're especially doing a couple road trips this past year there were so many that it'd be so much nicer if instead of it being even a quarter of a mile away.

[00:20:06] And and sometimes it's time in that it just kind of an array and large bit either business park or parking lot that having those. Kind of resources and being able to walk to them would be a huge difference in the road trip experience.

[00:20:22] Yeah, I'm not saying that love going the gas stations. I don't think anyone truly does. However, it's pretty hard to argue that it's a pretty compelling location. They have restaurants that are open 24 seven or very long hours.

[00:20:35] They have snacks that have drinks. You're not walking a mile across a parking lot. You think you might have a Walmart miles of examples that you get my point.

[00:20:43] You're probably walking 50 feet to walk into the store and they're usually at locations and I totally forgot to even mention Bucky's. Right. You didn't have any close on your road trip because you were a bit north. Fortunately, no, yeah.

[00:20:56] Yeah, actually, I saw them in Bindow and those. I want to check those out and I've heard amazing things but yeah, unfortunately here in the northwest in I think a lot of the west coast.

[00:21:04] I just really have not seen many. There's been a couple of coincidental charging locations at the community and stores and those kinds of setups, but it's usually kind of the outlier than the more common thing.

[00:21:18] And it seems like it's almost the inverse from at least from what I've heard kind of on the East coast in southeast. Yeah, I can do an entire road trip main to Florida and I could stop at super treasurer's that are only at probably sheets are wall up.

[00:21:32] Yeah, maybe a couple other sea storage mix then. Right, right, but I mean still no, I mean that's not even close to the case here. It's you really have to usually it's in kind of malls or shopping center parking lots for a lot of the stuff out here.

[00:21:46] But let's take a little bit of a change going from DC fast charging. I mean what's interesting is earlier, you're talking about that we were talking about the data of what's available to site plan.

[00:21:59] Can you share some of what the I guess I'm always fascinated by the data that's actually created by the charging and what's actually being.

[00:22:09] Figure out is to like, trying to recommend certain super chargers or chargers in a in car navigation system over others because of the data knowing that there's ex number of cars charging at a location.

[00:22:21] And you're experiencing view and maybe you can't share this, but have you just seen a have you seen these newer players in the space being more forward thinking about how to come approach that and sharing that with other out of manufacturers for road trip planning or is that still kind of early days.

[00:22:39] I'm hearing some rumblings and I can't comment too much, but things are coming. Okay, that's great.

[00:22:47] I mean, it's at to say it's been a big issue is pretty rare and obviously trying to testly kind of can kind of have the foresight better than others, but there have been a couple issues where it wasn't updating fast enough and.

[00:23:00] I've pretty much given up on relying on the electrify America app to be. Reflective of who's actually using them and how available it is. That's a huge problem having reliable charging data it's more than like her graphic control aspect totally.

[00:23:17] But I mean, having reliable data to even based that on is step number one and I truly don't understand how much for America's app is so wrong so often because the charge or should be communicating to their back end, which should be communicating to the out and they should all match I.

[00:23:35] It battles me every time I see an issue there.

[00:23:37] Yeah, I mean, coming from kind of the tech space now I definitely agree I just think they must have in one of or maybe multiple points it just only refreshes maybe every 30 minutes of that and it just causes such an inaccurate display of.

[00:23:54] What the current status is at these locations.

[00:23:58] Going from DC fast charging to level two charging I think there's been so many of these road trips I personally take in lately where I haven't even had to use a fast charger just because I can kind of figure out okay that's about the ultimate that's where they range ends and there's a brewery or there's a one that happens to have like a level two charger and.

[00:24:18] There's been a couple of times we're didn't work out, but then yeah I just drive another 10 minutes and those supercharger whatever but now it's kind of in the point where.

[00:24:25] It's becoming in my opinion a lot easier and more convenient in some ways because I'll have what I'm driving this far anyway, especially when I've got my wife and the dogs we have to stop or get lunch.

[00:24:36] And I'm kind of curious on your thoughts as someone who's worked with a lot of these community stories of. What you're seeing maybe in conversations with them and then just your thoughts in general of like what a good level to charging strategy is for people who have these.

[00:24:53] Whether they be against or so like a brewery or something where you can maybe want to spend a little more time and you're not in such a rush to go if what what the gap isn't that's based on how level two charging can kind of flourish more.

[00:25:07] Yeah, level two is not really in my realm of time. But I am a pretty avid user of it. I'm just not all the level two deployments. I'm more on a DC fact. I'm reallyistically level two doesn't make any sense out of the convenience store.

[00:25:21] Yeah, it's a total waste of space. Like convenience stores spaces at such a premium you need to make the most of every stall and have the fastest turnover possible.

[00:25:30] You don't want someone sitting there eight hours like you know that's that's not in a rupture, but that is a great question. Then what is what do you think is the minimum? A fast charger should be at convenience store. Probably 150 kilowatts. Okay.

[00:25:46] Yeah, I mean, yeah, plus or minus of that, I mean, depending on the specific states, you might have a sea store that's part of like a little bit of a shopping comp one's kind of thing that you may want a little bit slower.

[00:25:57] Otherwise, you may have 150 kilowatts that may have two ports and that could be beneficial still even if it power shares.

[00:26:04] So I mean, there's definitely some room for flexibility depending on the specific use case, but generally if you're charging in a sea store, you want to be charging and moving out as quickly as you can. Totally, and I kind of agree with you like I'm of the mindset.

[00:26:20] I realize there's a bunch of factors that can be used in a big one is site resource availability in the cost.

[00:26:27] Yeah, I'm kind of on the mindset it's like I think at the very least, it should be 150 kilowatts if not closer to 200 or more, at least future proof. Some of these locations more.

[00:26:38] There's here actual between Washington, Oregon, California, there's this thing made actually over a decade ago called the West Coast Electric Highway. It's a ghost or some really beautiful areas, it's a fun little drive, but most of it was.

[00:26:53] Chattamau and then they recently updated it a couple years ago to be CCS and even then the chatemod I think was.

[00:27:02] Maybe it went up to 60 kilowatts, but even with these updates, they put in whole completely new chargers and they had CCS, I think all of them have CCS with a chatemod port on it, but they can only charge one at a time.

[00:27:14] Even then that was still the same 60 kilowatts and I'm just going to found that to be.

[00:27:21] In my opinion, I mean I guess if you already have kind of the site power and stuff going there and that's what you're going to do, that's what you got to do, it's better than nothing but at that point I just think.

[00:27:30] It's not really well future proof and it just isn't able to with so many other alternatives out there and like it's so close to a good level two charger at 11 kilowatts if you're going to be somewhere for an hour versus you're going to almost have to be.

[00:27:43] At one of these for an hour anyway, especially if you're low that it to me I would love to be proven wrong or tell me I'm wrong, but to me it just seems like.

[00:27:52] It's got to be at least 150 or 180 or I'd like to see a closer 200 with so many of the newer, especially the big EV pickups.

[00:28:00] Yeah, I mean realistically there's very diminishing returns the higher power, but you get the real benefit of doing a higher power charger is when you have dual output because then you're getting that 150 plus.

[00:28:11] 250 plus to two vehicles simultaneously, realistically unless the site is pretty highly utilized you're probably going to be getting the max power on one output pretty often except it decides very busy. But on sites like you mentioned I believe EVCS bought out that network if everyone's right.

[00:28:29] Yeah, yeah, I've used some of those in my own Tesla actually, but they have the 50 kilowatt and then they have a level two right next to it. Right, everything's one of the highlights back. And there's a couple of times where I can never even get the.

[00:28:45] The main I think there's been one time where's the chat amount and then you see adapter and another time when it was the CCS there's been times where those were just busted and I used the level two.

[00:28:56] There were a couple times where I just tried using them for fun. I didn't really need it, but I was going to be parked there anyway and the software and trying to get them all the communicate with such a pain the ass that I just said screw it.

[00:29:07] And plugged into the level two, which was free and it was better than nothing. And it was kind of the point where it's just like kind of gone back to the conversation early. It's like the user experience just really has to be simplified and.

[00:29:20] And maybe I'm being over as always about but someone's going to come from working with like a lot of mobile mobile first companies like the apps for some of these are just so awful.

[00:29:29] And a lot of the time there in places where there isn't great cell connection, so if you have to download it and do all this stuff.

[00:29:35] It is such a pain in the bun and even the summer before this most recent one I did a road trip through the UK and run in a model three.

[00:29:44] And every time I went off there was some sort of app you had to download and it was crazy too, because you actually had to for a couple of them you had to have a UK based phone number. And if you didn't. Or what as well.

[00:29:59] Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I'm complaining again, but go on. Oh, I think those are good application for a battery based system as the replacement because then you can actually use that existing grid connection and hopefully get higher power out.

[00:30:16] But so something like a free wire there's the adds tech dispenser based system. There's some other battery based systems that could make sense, but the challenge with those systems is you can't have too high of utilization or than that impact the customer experience as well.

[00:30:33] But no, I'm all for that. I agree with you. I think that is a really good solution for those sides.

[00:30:39] I've kind of heard mixed things on the actual cost to do that upgrade still that it's kind of like, okay, maybe it's worth it just to do the upgrade the site anyway, but yeah, I think that's a really good alternative solution and for all these especially the EVCS sites there.

[00:30:59] And so more often than not not being used. There's definitely like during the weekends I drive by them and there would be a line of people and I was like, well that's also a terrible EV ownership experience.

[00:31:09] But vast majority of the time you drive about there's no in there. And so having something like that where you can charge it having a battery backup system where you can give off a lot more power and then kind of slowly charge up over time I think.

[00:31:22] I would have liked to have seen that when I did these upgrade. But I think that's also a cash 22 because if it was higher power and probably higher utilization, because people would actually use it because it would be useful to them. Where is what? The last thing.

[00:31:35] You know, who's it if it's 50 kilowatt and they have 150 kilowatt option otherwise, but that 50 kilowatt could be a better location potentially. I think I think you're right.

[00:31:45] I think there's a couple places here in Oregon especially where they are they're pretty damn remote that there isn't anything for quite a while. Guestation included but I think you're right for a lot of them that is on fort let's kind of like.

[00:31:59] Yeah, the catch 22 is a little bit more. Very basically. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think that there's kind of been tested and now they have come and you haven't there hasn't been more built to catch up with said demand but.

[00:32:16] Going back to the level two charging it's not like there were a couple things you had wanted to mention just from your own experiences a EV driver. Yeah, so I think level two is pretty fantastic at destinations.

[00:32:28] Generally, somewhere that you're going to be all day somewhere that you're going to be overnight so hotels offices maybe gyms potentially. Movie theaters things like that those are the places that you really want to be spending.

[00:32:44] I'd say the threshold is somewhere around the two to three hours or longer that level two actually is beneficial any less than then I personally find it useless and I probably won't even bother plugging in unless it's free and or very convenient part of.

[00:32:57] Or very convenient parking because it's just the waste of time you might get 10% if you're there for an hour. And see I push back on that.

[00:33:06] If now it depends like if it's like a six kilowatt or less that things pointless and this actually goes to one of my other ideas is like if you have a level two obviously there's all sorts of sight locations but.

[00:33:20] Yeah, if you have a level two and you can put out 11 kilowatts. That's great. And I feel like if you're there for an hour that's pretty good and there's quite a few wineries and some of the breweries here in Oregon that have those.

[00:33:31] And I think at that point it's right but unless you're doing overnight at a hotel I think six kilowatt see you and is like not enough and that's coming from someone who drives a Tesla model why one of the more efficient cards like I can't imagine having the river and or something like that where it's like.

[00:33:48] What is that yeah, right you might add maybe 10% overnight kind of stuff and that really is I think once again come an example of maybe not future proofing but I don't know what are your thoughts on that.

[00:33:58] Yeah, I mean it wasn't quite that bad in the ravine but it was pretty common if I go into a hotel at.

[00:34:03] All a 10% over to like 10 11 PM and trying to leave at 7 a.m. the following morning, which is a pretty common thing for me on a road trip above just trying to. I'm not a mile. I might not gain 50% overnight out of 6 kilowatt and that's not bad.

[00:34:20] It's not bad and it's it is. Right, but it didn't really it's not like I can skip the next 3 DC faster as a problem still going to the next one. Right, I probably only gained 150 miles of range overnight, which is not that great.

[00:34:37] Realistically, I think, level two will go away aside from overnight stops or offices. I think we're going to see a lot more low power DC as it becomes a lot less expensive. So that's it.

[00:34:51] Started to see some new entrance into that space with more compact and less expensive hardware.

[00:34:57] And it's actually going to be to some extent cheaper to install because you can have a 480 volt feed instead of 2 a and you're then not limited by the vehicles on board charger because you can sell a 19 kilowatt AC level 2 unit.

[00:35:11] But that's useless unless you have that 150 lightning older Tesla or a losing. No, that's that's a great thing. Where is if you have a low power DC you're going to probably get full power on any vehicle.

[00:35:27] That's no I agree with it. I mean one of the things I've even and I want to ask you about this because you might know that. In Europe obviously they can they have 3 phase level 2 and that's pretty sweet where it's like closer to 22 kilowatt.

[00:35:41] And we can't do that in the US even if you set it up at a commercial site because of the.

[00:35:47] Is it a limitation of the car or is it a limitation of the charger of those you know everything so that's why it's power ranting about the US should have used type 2 and CCS 2 and why we wouldn't have the max CCS conversation we're having the state or these days.

[00:36:04] If we had done that. But I think it was a huge mistake not going with type 2 or CCS type 2 in North America because even though 3 phases in available at households in North America, at least not typically.

[00:36:18] 3 phase powers available at pretty much every commercial property everywhere in North America. Maybe not 100% but easily 80% plus. And if you have that 2 8 volt 3 phase you're going to be getting more power than charging at say 30 amps on 2 8 3 phase. I'm not doing the math here on video but anyway.

[00:36:38] No, no it always serves me off to the power. And I think another thing that was a mess with the North American standard is not allowing either 277 volt input or 480 volt input.

[00:36:50] Because we're limited to a max of 250 volts on input or 240 plus or minus 10% for the standard of j1772 or type 2 or type 1 which is what's used everywhere in North America and that's the same goes for next.

[00:37:07] So that's not even max versus j1772 thing that is just across the board North America we don't support higher than 240 inch volts, which is really just. Because that actually makes it a lot more complicated to add AC charging at a DC fast charging site because most DC fast.

[00:37:26] Right, our fed at a 480 3 phase service and you can easily get 277 volt but that's outside of the range. You could easily get 48 volt from the 3 phase power because 277 is faced in neutral and 48 is lying to lying.

[00:37:44] But if you want to install AC charging at a DC fast charging site that has a 480 service, you actually have to use a step down transformer which just adds a whole new layer complex the encost and then you also need a separate distribution panel for that to have multiple.

[00:38:02] Whereas if you just allowed 277 or 48 you could just have basically mini breakers in the same distribution panel as your 200 300 600 amp breakers going to those DC fast chargers and now we'll just make things white easier.

[00:38:17] Right, and that's actually a good call out obviously I was kind of about the residential use case of it first but no you're spot on that that's something I don't think does get enough attention of having that higher voltage of just doing the 27.

[00:38:31] Because that would kind of mitigate a lot of these issues and even because this is I mean you're right this could easily be another podcast because this is something I talked to people all about well I am all four vehicle to load stuff.

[00:38:48] Most people don't realize this is kind of some of the similar issues you start getting into with vehicle to load because of how residential panels are set up that the vast majority just can't handle that sort of system and require pretty expensive.

[00:39:03] And so they can't have some sort of vehicle to load plug in and so the idea of more cars having vehicle vehicle to load is great.

[00:39:12] But it's really not as cost effective it's not something you can just plug into the wall and when the power goes out and it just automatically works it's a pretty complicated process that I and as you say.

[00:39:24] And so I'm going to turn on the through phase especially on the commercial side here domestically that actually starts making things a lot less complicated but. Yeah, and smaller wires as a result.

[00:39:34] Because wire size based on current not based on voltage so the higher voltage you have the less current you can have for the same power or the more power you can have on the same for it. Right no and that's I mean that's a whole another chapter of.

[00:39:49] I mean that's a very weird thing to be heard of that I'm all about in dealing with.

[00:39:53] It's it's funny, I guess I brought up so I'll say the lane rover defender we have it's a 3.9 liter V8 love the thing but like I said go through gas like crazy and so I'm actually in the process of.

[00:40:07] I'm going to be on the part and getting all the parts and stuff but looking at actually working with this team and guy that'll actually be on the podcast in a couple of weeks out of the UK that's now built a kit for essentially doing a electric conversion defenders and actually I think you might have been on.

[00:40:23] Kyle Conner's thing it's for company called felt in out of the UK that. I came in a bunch of the team were just at CMA so it's it's a it that's a whole another thing but once you start getting into the.

[00:40:37] Wire sizes and what you can do to kind of hack around getting some of the smaller sizes here and there that that's a huge thing for all of those and I.

[00:40:46] This is such a nerdy thing but I'm sure you probably were fascinating about you have so excited when Tesla announced that they're hopefully we'll see how soon I think it's with the cyber check they're going to a 48 volt.

[00:40:56] Low voltage system because that will do a lot not just for wait but really for the actual loads and energy used internally on the car systems.

[00:41:07] And then allow them to actually have much more access to power to do some really cool stuff that you just can do on the 12 volt system.

[00:41:16] Yeah, a lot of a lot of auto EM's have kind of switched to 48 volt systems not necessarily for the entire access to them but a lot of them have like. The high suspension systems or power steering or.

[00:41:31] Delivery systems that are higher power on a 48 volt bus versus a 12 volt bus or you can have a mile hybrid system that way as well right right and that that's that's also another.

[00:41:40] And I want to use the mile hybrid but even then you actually there's a huge improvement by just going to a full 48 volt system. The issue obviously is them getting the suppliers to build it at that rate, but I think that's actually a pretty underrated advance that will.

[00:41:58] Make more EV's useless, better one but to then give you access and make a lot easier to do some really cool suspension or other tech and have. All the power you need to do that more but that's all another discussion I guess.

[00:42:13] Given your exposure to this professionally on YouTube socially social media wise what are some of the most common I guess.

[00:42:26] Questions that you're still seeing or like you're just surprised like we still have we're still dealing with this people still have questions are misconceptions about EVs and charging in general I and I just be curious to hear that from you because of your role as a you drive or but also being on the professional side of it.

[00:42:44] Yeah, I've mostly tuned out at this point because there's plenty of people that specialize in kind of the entry level EV knowledge I mean there's time on side of things. True.

[00:42:55] There's plenty of YouTubers that I have kind of a more basic stuff and realistically I'm kind of appealing to the nerds a little bit and I just don't really have a patience for it frankly.

[00:43:04] The most common thing that I see is that people still seem to think that batteries are going to need to be replaced. Some people as soon as a couple years to what happens in 15 years when you've either been new battery.

[00:43:17] I've personally owned two Tesla's to 200,000 miles original battery original drive units it's a total nine issue and the data knows that as well.

[00:43:26] And I mean sure there might be occasional failures that happen potentially outside of warranty and they probably give a lot of press because it's that uncommon and because they see archbill and it gets clicked.

[00:43:39] But I work in the automotive service industry actually for quite a few years before I came into the EV world and the amount of times that I quoted people $10,000 plus for an engine replacement or $5,000 plus for transmission replacement.

[00:43:54] And I mean that's how much a remaining fact should or new battery is and or a driving unit. And I mean they're just as uncommon if in fact the battery or driving a failure is probably a lot less common than those engine and transmission replacement. Oh yeah.

[00:44:10] No I mean just inherently when you have so much less moving parts for one but to heat transfer and all this stuff like inherently it's just going to be exposed to less. Degradation we're an endowment degradation but essentially less damaging lifetime of use with.

[00:44:30] Now I am kind of curious on the professional side of stuff. I'm sure you probably do get similar questions but and but obviously on social media. So it's probably a little more malicious it's a little more idiotic. Yeah, dare I say even.

[00:44:44] But with the professional I would assume a lot of the time it's not so much name as it is just genuine because there is so much misinformation bad info on this stuff like you said just it's always the bad news that kind of gets caught up in the headlines.

[00:44:58] What what are some of the questions maybe you're seeing from like site hosts when you're putting in a DC fast charger or you're starting to get that that like.

[00:45:07] You think that there's still kind of education that needs to be done or just kind of miss perceptions that are probably well intended but just kind of going into they don't know better. Yeah, I mean I think being on the fuel retail side of the business.

[00:45:22] I'm sure see people think that you can drive away with the cable because that happens so frequently with gas pumps.

[00:45:28] You can't do that and you be physically impossible if the cable is plugged into a vehicle even if there's no power flowing you still can't drive away it is part of the spec that if there's a cable in the charge for it, you cannot drive.

[00:45:41] And if somehow you can while you have much bigger problems right right.

[00:45:47] Another thing I see is kind of a fire risk a lot of people overblow the risk of fire or while all the attention some people seem to think well you should have a fire extinguisher right that's the charger it's like.

[00:46:00] If you do fire extinguisher well that fire extinguisher is not doing anything. Right. I mean that's the same with the gas station if you think that little dingy thing is going to put out a fire at a pedestal that's caught on fire on car. Yeah.

[00:46:14] Gas station or a very different thing. The EV. That could be effective if you properly or is it an EV's on fire unless you like somehow caught your interior on fire from a cigarette or I don't know. Right right right right right.

[00:46:29] I believe that under a link to it being an EV that if it's an EV related fire that fire extinguisher is doing absolutely nothing.

[00:46:37] Another thing I see is just kind of the general safety around it and people think that like that it's a hazard to even touch the handle because there's high voltage there's no power flowing until it's communicated with the vehicle.

[00:46:49] You could dump a chartambal into a bucket of water and then charge your vehicle on it and I mean you should probably let it dry a little bit or shake it out first but it would be totally fine.

[00:46:59] So I think just kind of the general misconceptions around safety and just like hazards that it may pose even though it's actually much safer than a gas car.

[00:47:11] So where do you think that the these misperceptions can be answered is this on the role of the OEMs is this on the role of. A circle K or someone who is trying to get more people to charge at their locations.

[00:47:27] I think people just need to actually look for real information and not just believe the first thing they hear. Yeah, that's nothing happened. I think you're 100% right that's what should happen and is the right intention.

[00:47:45] But I've got a couple of buddies there I wouldn't say always the most intelligent but they're halfway smart enough guys that they are always sending me the shit they see on Instagram and I'm like, it was this really a thing especially around EVs and like now.

[00:47:57] It's not and it's and you like if you even I will say it's controversial there's one of the things I love about Twitter now is the community notes because you will see someone who like.

[00:48:07] Show's a video of some car in France like oh it's another damn EV and then you can actually see.

[00:48:12] The note on it that's like no this was a gas car that got an accident blow up it's not just having some ability to kind of find that exactly exactly the fact from fiction element to it.

[00:48:25] So I guess that we don't know hopefully someone will figure that out. I'm not really in the education space I'm more in the doing space so all the other to figure that out.

[00:48:39] I like to think what we do on this podcast is my only educational but I think if you're already listening to it.

[00:48:45] You're smart enough or at least already kind of down the pipeline enough and the EV space that you kind of realize the fact from fiction so I'm not sure as much as I'd hope to think we're making a difference.

[00:48:54] I don't know if we're doing that today but with with all of this where where do you kind of see. In a few years from now EV batteries and EV charging really headed do you see it being okay now.

[00:49:08] EV batteries are going up to 400 kilowatts and can charge at that rate or do you think it's just going to be more the interest that maybe the rates not improved but the infrastructure is just going to be more common or maybe a mixture both.

[00:49:21] I think I'm sure both and I think the best way to figure that out is literally just looking at the markets that are five years ahead of us. If you look at Norway, look at Europe as a whole you look at China.

[00:49:31] China has EVs that are charging at crazy high rates they're getting 10 minute charges 400 kilowatts plus you look at Norway there's charging stations everywhere.

[00:49:42] You might have a travel plaza off of a Euro road that has three different charging providers at that one travel plaza so that you have different options. So it's kind of a mix of better infrastructure, better batteries but realistically we just need more.

[00:49:59] It's not so much that it has to be better and reliable but we just need more first. And I think there's some like people that think we should not be doing it until it's perfect but actually we need to be doing everything today.

[00:50:13] Then get as much infrastructure in the ground as possible because it's a lot easier to replace hardware that's not good than is to build it from scratch. So you look at for example those EVCS sites I'm not really familiar with.

[00:50:26] It's a lot easier to replace those than is to build those from scratch because you already have power. And it's I mean it could be a one week two week project maybe even a month worst case scenario.

[00:50:39] To completely redo a site that already has power to it versus if you had to start from scratch when you first have to find a site if you're most operated as that don't have real estate already.

[00:50:50] He'd have to work with utility to make sure there's even power there and then you have to build the site from nothing.

[00:50:57] And that's a lot more involved than if you have to modify or if you plan to properly hopefully you don't even have to modify that site to operate it.

[00:51:05] And I think there's a lot of ways that that can be done. I'm not seeing it in a ton in North America, but if you look at a lot of European sites the way that they're building the sites is actually very future proof and a lot of cases they can swap hardware without breaking any concrete or running any additional condiments.

[00:51:25] That is very nice that's pretty impressive.

[00:51:29] Yeah, no kidding. With that what do you think would be a motivating factor or what do you think would what do you think is that kind of ex variable that's missing to kind of help accelerate the roll out and increase infrastructure around the US.

[00:51:47] I think there were two key things in the past that kind of held it back. I'm still having a different important than everyone else and kind of establishing themselves as a front runner.

[00:51:59] I think actually held back other potential operators from deploying infrastructure because they saw that Tesla was leading the way so much, they didn't want to be in their shadow.

[00:52:09] And they also, they didn't have any other vehicles to support until two or three years ago, realistically even 18 months ago we didn't have half the non-NESL EVs that we have today.

[00:52:19] So what was the motivation for these other operators to deploy infrastructure because they couldn't deploy charging that supported Tesla, which was the majority of the market until very recently and still is the majority of the market.

[00:52:32] When I say majority of the market, obviously as far as vehicles available, they're still definitely the majority as far as vehicles sold. Yeah, but now that we're finally converging onto one port standard with NACs, I think that's going to help accelerate things.

[00:52:48] But there's also the other factor of electrify America that they kind of became the de facto national provider of charging infrastructure because of a government settlement.

[00:52:58] So it was for all the wrong incentives and I think that also blocked a lot of other would be operators from entering the space because why would they want to compete with someone that essentially has a check that's $2 billion that they are forced to spend.

[00:53:14] They have no reason to do it in any way that makes economic sense. They're not doing it because of a business case, they're doing it because they have no choice but to spend this money building this.

[00:53:24] And if all these OEMs have partnership, you know, this is what I'll try America. Well who's going to be charging? If you can't get Tesla, if you have all these OEMs with charging deals with the lunch of the United States, they're getting free or discounted charging.

[00:53:39] How much of that pie is left? And I think we need to do it with the free charging deals discounted charging or free charging for an X amount of till-hour. I think actually like 250 to maybe even a thousand till-hour free is kind of a good thing.

[00:53:55] To a lot of people might buy an EV, they may not have home charging right away. They just need them as a stopgap to just try it out or their first couple road trips may be free.

[00:54:05] But I've unlimited free charging is just it just breaks the economics of all of it. And that is actually blocking other operators from getting into this space. That's interesting and one of the other things on a recent episode, we had Louranic Donald from EV adoption on.

[00:54:25] And he was kind of talking about the well-intentioned inverse effect of all these Neve funds, where instead of putting stuff in the ground they want to kind of wait till they get the money from the Neve funds to then put the stuff in.

[00:54:39] And that's also kind of in some ways accelerated how Tesla is kind of just, if they get their most, their focus is moving fast. So they can get government funds great.

[00:54:49] But if the funds are going to slow them from putting an installation and they're just going to put the installation in and go the next thing. And it was kind of interesting talking to him with what we've seen with the Neve funds.

[00:54:59] How it's just taken longer to get that rolled out in general. But how it's also kind of had the negative short term effect of a lot of these operators are like,

[00:55:07] well, we want to do it but if we can get another $250,000, we're probably going to hold off and wait till that's approved at least for so many of these sites that we can do that for.

[00:55:19] So I'm yeah, we're in this definitely the expert in the space I talked about. The many times. No, he was a great guest ever. Yeah, and unfortunately that I worked for an employee that didn't have that philosophy.

[00:55:31] We were full steam ahead, build the site but also going for Neve. But I think that is happening in the market. Unfortunately it looks like pilot flying J is maybe not doing that as much.

[00:55:43] They may have had that strategy initially, but it looks like they're building a lot of sites right now. Even in areas that they weren't awarded Neve funding. So I think they probably kind of just said screw it. It's taking too long. Let's just build them anyway.

[00:55:55] And I think we're kind of at that point that a lot of these operators need to be considering that move because Neve is just moving so slowly.

[00:56:03] And it's it is putting a bottleneck on the overall industry, but it's also a challenge because the some of the equipment requirements also made it pretty challenging to actually have good equipment. So hopefully as a lot of these new entrants in the market are coming that that improves.

[00:56:21] Yeah, and actually that remind me I wanted to check where some of these pilot flying J locations work because I remember most. Okay, they've got some at least along I five. But yeah the vast majority looks like it's east of the Mississippi.

[00:56:37] Just looking at this map right now or yeah I mean Montana. Yeah there's quite a few states of what's the Mississippi. They don't even have any in there.

[00:56:45] Most of it's in California. There's one maybe in Washington, but it looks like here in Oregon it's a few across I five and I'd be for. But yeah that's what's been really interesting like even falling away circle K was down.

[00:56:59] And I think they look like there's just more of those in general in the East Coast, but it's been kind of surprising. And I think some of that probably goes back to which you're talking about the utilities and some of the regulation out here.

[00:57:09] That's kind of slow down from seeing more of them on the West Coast lately. Yeah it can be pretty challenging to deploy things west of the Mississippi. Yeah, unfortunately. Well I use I really so most states that really want to push immediate option.

[00:57:29] They're doing quite the opposite as far as the infrastructure because they also have a lot of other policies that are a lot less. A lot safer economics of actually letting things happen. I could not agree with you more Brandon. I believe it at that.

[00:57:49] I just want to say first thank you so much for coming on today, but second I guess we pretty much answered this but one of the things I always ask people who come on here is just if they.

[00:58:01] In their mind whether it be government private business what do you think could would you like to see to help accelerate the rollout of more EVs. More EVs are more EV charging. They do let let's say let's say EVs.

[00:58:21] I think the vehicles just need to speak for themselves. I think right now we're in a weird holding pattern between CCS vehicles and next vehicles, especially being so close to 2024. I think there are people waiting for least waiting for the CCS vehicles to be discounted.

[00:58:37] So I think we really just need to make it very straightforward for consumer spy them and dealers need to get out of the way because dealers I think are also a huge holding back thing from people buying EVs because dealers have no incentive to sell an EV.

[00:58:52] They're making less on service. They're probably making less selling warranties because there's less things that failed. There's less maintenance and the vehicles are actually pretty fantastic. The chartering is just not there. So it's kind of the chicken and egg scenario as well.

[00:59:07] And then you have dealers that are perpetuating a lot of these myths. So the myths that we talked about earlier because a lot of these consumers they go into a dealership thinking that the dealership is going to be the experts.

[00:59:19] But that might be a false thing. I don't think a lot of cases of dealers are the expert on EVs or they might make it seem that they are, but they're saying partial truths or potentially been complete false.

[00:59:34] For sure and I will say kind of in defense dealership say, I guess I have had experiences when I've bought combustion engine vehicles.

[00:59:44] And if it wasn't for the fact, I guess maybe this isn't actually in their defense. If it wasn't for how much I knew about the car and what I was trying to get.

[00:59:52] I knew usually more about that or the reason I wanted that car specifically than the salesperson and unfortunately I think what it goes to is maybe not always education but just incentives.

[01:00:01] Kind of like what you're telling that is like they're incentivized to sell a car and for a lot of them it's probably quicker and easier to sell a combustion engine than all of the what about this.

[01:00:11] And if it's a business. I think I'm just curious real quickly, is there anything when you asked about EVs or EV charging is there anything we haven't said about EV charging that you would like to see change.

[01:00:28] I think you didn't incentivize operational goals versus just deploying more charters because it's a fun call good point just deploying more charters, well that's what people are going to do and that's what they're going to do to get more money and they're not going to look at the existing charters.

[01:00:44] It's very important that you have funding available on both or that you focus on the operators that actually have the incentive to develop charging infrastructure that works and is reliable and it for the long term not just because they see dollar signs of Neve programs.

[01:01:02] And some of these award lists from Neve programs and you're like who's that. And you know like and someone in this industry if I'm asking who's that on a Neve award list, that should be raising all sorts of rights.

[01:01:16] I don't know who that operator is when it's literally my job to know this industry. Right, but yeah there's definitely some questions around long term sustainability of that of those choices.

[01:01:29] Kind of like the solar industry, I'm not an expert on the solar industry, but I know at least early on there were a lot of people that would build solar farms during LLC they sell it to another LLC.

[01:01:41] They sell it to another LLC, but then initial LLC got a whole bunch of funding to build it. But then 15 years later, it's like who actually owns this whose responsible for this as it's towards its end of life.

[01:01:53] It's less operational on solar because hopefully their works are it doesn't for the most part of the management failures here and there.

[01:02:00] And it's not impacting consumers at that point, however it's kind of a similar thing to if you just created an LLC that get funding through the Neve program more even any other program.

[01:02:12] But then maybe you sell that to another entity five years from now after you build to portfolio. And then five years later, it sells again and then suddenly you're at the end of the Neve program and you just have all these stranded assets.

[01:02:23] Yeah, I guess all just kind of say I actually worked in the solar industry for quite a while it's really starting about a decade ago.

[01:02:31] And around that time the state of Oregon really along the West Coast but the state of Oregon especially had some of the best funds to start a solar or to do install solar and it was very well intended.

[01:02:44] So this kind of goes to the epinome of what we were done that earlier of the intentions and the realities.

[01:02:50] But essentially the state was paying so much money for these installations whether it be commercial or residential that a lot of residential clients and specifically electricians, what was going on. I'm going to become a residential electrician. Photovultaken solar which was kind of the intention but.

[01:03:12] Here in Oregon we get seasons and especially in the portland area they get a lot of rain and you have these electricians who knew the electrical side great.

[01:03:21] But we're putting all these penetrations into people's homes and it's starting raining and they notice hey what's going on and unfortunately pretty quickly.

[01:03:31] And so the first electricians figured out there's also a second part of this that you need to know and have maybe working with a good rooper or something like that has a huge downstream impact.

[01:03:42] And pretty quickly quite a few they're had a file for bankruptcy or many other kind of unfortunate outcomes because of that but. Yeah, that that's kind of my fun little quick about those unintended well intended the old path.

[01:03:56] And I'm going to say that I'm going to be a little bit more careful with the idea of how to help us pay with good intentions kind of sites types of stories. But yeah, well I just want to say thanks so much Brandon for being on once again.

[01:04:09] It's been really great to finally talk with Ian talk about especially EV charging in the whole space and we could have easily talked for another couple hours but.

[01:04:17] I realize it's getting late for you so I want to let you get going and we'll just have to have the conversation continue another time.

[01:04:24] I mean, guys, provide me apprehend and flash on YouTube, ex or Twitter. I'd still like you to say that's a terrible name for platform but I'll digress. But everywhere there in I talk about turning infrastructure EVs on all of them.

[01:04:39] Yeah, and if anyone that's listening like I said, if you're not already following, Brandon cannot recommend his YouTube page and I'll have links in that to the podcast as well very fascinating.

[01:04:49] And sometimes it's maybe a Brandon's unfortunate outcome, but it's always entertaining to see the charging experiences that Brandon has and shares on YouTube. So with that, thanks so much Brandon and I will talk soon. Hey guys, next time.