We sit down with Brandon Bartneck, the Host of the Future of Mobility Podcast and the Vice President & General Manager at Edison Manufacturing and Engineering.
Summary
In this conversation, I discuss with Brandon Bartnick Edison's contributions to manufacturing in the mobility space. We explore topics such as the value proposition of plug-in hybrids, the challenges of towing with electric vehicles, and the interest in electrification in various industries. We also touch on the future of the EV space, how automakers are handling sales challenges in the industry to plan long term and the importance of finding the right vehicle for different use cases. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexities and opportunities in the transition to sustainable transportation. We also explore the specialized equipment and customized solutions required in various industries, the focus on automation and electrification in commercial environments, the motivations for decarbonization, and the innovations in electric manufacturing. It's clear in this episode the importance of quality and supply chain management in manufacturing and the supply chain challenges faced by charging companies.
Takeaways
- The perception and positioning in the electric vehicle market have shifted, with companies focusing on capital efficiency and responsible growth.
- The value proposition of plug-in hybrids varies depending on individual needs and use cases.
- Choosing the right vehicle for different use cases, such as suburban or rural areas, requires considering factors like range, charging infrastructure, and practicality.
- The challenges of towing with electric vehicles and the need for advancements in charging technology for fleet and commercial applications.
- Interest in electrification extends to various industries, including aviation, where decarbonization remains a complex challenge. Specialized equipment and customized solutions are necessary in various industries, requiring a deep understanding of unique needs and use cases.
- Automation and electrification are key focuses in commercial environments, where controlled and predictable conditions allow for safer and more efficient operations.
- Motivations for decarbonization vary, with some driven by self-interest and market trends, while others are influenced by government regulations and mandates.
- Innovations in electric manufacturing include robust quality control processes and supply chain management to ensure efficient production and timely delivery.
- Charging companies face supply chain challenges, such as lead time uncertainties and component availability, which can impact the rollout of charging infrastructure.
Watch the full episode on Youtube
Also if you are looking to either buy a Tesla or even test drive one, feel free to use our referral code.
Want to be a guest on Grid Connections?
00:00:03
Good morning, Greek Connections listeners.
00:00:05
I'm your host Chase, and joining me today
is Brandon Bartnick.
00:00:08
He's the host of the Future Mobility
Podcast and the Vice President and General
00:00:12
Manager at Edison Manufacturing and
Engineering.
00:00:15
In our conversation, we'll explore
Edison's contributions to manufacturing in
00:00:19
the mobility space.
00:00:20
For anyone interested in the future of
manufacturing electric and autonomous
00:00:24
vehicles, this episode is for you.
00:00:27
We discuss all sorts of topics today,
ranging from the value proposition of
00:00:30
plug-in hybrids and other types of power
trains, the growing importance of charging
00:00:34
infrastructure, especially for fleet and
commercial applications, along with the
00:00:39
different types of AC and DC charging
solutions that Edison manufacturing offers
00:00:44
in conjunction with battery backup
solutions.
00:00:47
We also talk about how the latter is a key
aspect in managing grid related costs and
00:00:52
ensuring a seamless charging experience.
00:00:54
Brendan shares his insights on how OEMs
are positioning their long-term
00:00:58
investments for electric vehicles, plus
the critical role quality and supply chain
00:01:03
management play into all of them.
00:01:06
So whether you're a tech enthusiast and
auto industry professional or just curious
00:01:10
about the future of transportation, this
episode covers it all.
00:01:15
Plus remember to subscribe and share this
episode with others you think that will
00:01:18
enjoy the content.
00:01:20
And with all of that, enjoy.
00:01:21
Yeah, thanks, Chase.
00:01:24
forward to the conversation.
00:01:24
My pleasure.
00:01:25
For those who are listening who may not be
familiar with Edison, the future of
00:01:29
mobility, can you just give a kind of
quick overview, maybe first of the podcast
00:01:34
and then what you do and more about Edison
as a company.
00:01:40
Yeah, sure.
00:01:40
So Brandon Barton, yeah, future mobility
podcast started and right when the
00:01:45
pandemic started pretty much like March
2020.
00:01:47
And I've been running it for about four
years now.
00:01:49
And chase, you had you on to talk.
00:01:52
Uh, I think it was after that the Texas
grid failed.
00:01:55
Um, well, a few, few years ago, yeah, the
big storm and I had the question.
00:02:00
Yeah.
00:02:00
And I was questioning like, Hey, how do
these, uh, how do these grids actually
00:02:03
work and, and how do we try to prevent
this in the future?
00:02:05
And we had a, a fun conversation there,
but essentially the podcast is
00:02:09
It's built around the search for safer,
more sustainable, more effective, and more
00:02:14
accessible transportation, which I define
as movement of goods and people.
00:02:17
So how are we providing services for
people to move themselves and to get to
00:02:23
places to get things to them in a way
that's safe and sustainable and that
00:02:26
they're not putting themselves or others
at undue harm or creating negative
00:02:30
consequences for future generations and,
and all of that.
00:02:33
And, um, yeah, to cover a wide range of
topics that's, uh,
00:02:37
I originally thought that was a reasonably
simple scope, but I've since learned that
00:02:42
is a very complex equation that we're
trying to solve here.
00:02:46
And there's, I get to speak to experts
throughout the industry on those types of
00:02:50
topics.
00:02:51
And along that, my day job is closely tied
to that.
00:02:54
So I lead Edison Manufacturing and
Engineering as Vice President and General
00:02:59
Manager.
00:03:00
And we are a niche contract manufacturer.
00:03:03
So we specialize in low to medium volume.
00:03:06
complex assembly of, for the most part,
electric and autonomous vehicle systems,
00:03:12
components, vehicles.
00:03:13
And so we do, we build things like
chargers and electric vehicle components
00:03:18
up to where later this year launching
production for a full vehicle and being
00:03:25
the full vehicle integrator in the
electric vehicle space, autonomous vehicle
00:03:28
integration, outfits, charger builds and
integration.
00:03:31
And essentially we serve as a reliable,
capital efficient and flexible.
00:03:37
partner for the companies who are trying
to make an impact in the space.
00:03:40
That's great and I think it's been really
interesting to kind of follow what you're
00:03:43
doing now with what we had as you
mentioned that conversation just a couple
00:03:46
of years ago because I know what you were
doing previously was a little bit more
00:03:50
about looking at manufacturing and I know
that Edison does some of this as well as
00:03:55
kind of like trying to figure out how to
optimize and make it easier for
00:03:59
manufacturing but I think it's really
great to see where you've come from and
00:04:02
what you're trying to now.
00:04:05
make kind of your own splash with this
role at Edison.
00:04:08
So that that's great to see.
00:04:09
I know you mentioned that there may be a
full car coming later this year.
00:04:12
Is it too early to share any details about
that or will there be an update later this
00:04:17
year?
00:04:19
Yeah, I mean, I think you can just see
there's a press release in late 2023.
00:04:24
And hopefully there's more coming, but we
have an honor to work with the company
00:04:29
Zeus electric chassis based here in the U
S building a class five electric work
00:04:34
truck.
00:04:34
And
00:04:35
and chassis.
00:04:35
And so yeah, we have, we're their partner
to bring that into production.
00:04:38
Congrats.
00:04:38
That's, that's great to hear.
00:04:39
And definitely a space that could, uh, I
think is going to be one of the earlier
00:04:44
and more successful ones, at least
financially, to go through electrification
00:04:47
just with the needs of whether it's
maintenance or just also that reliability
00:04:53
with that.
00:04:53
Can you share a little bit of, um, maybe
some of the things
00:04:57
just to give a little more detail around
Edison and what makes Edison Engineering
00:05:01
stand out and where your kind of area
expertise really is in this space.
00:05:08
Yeah, so it's, I think it starts with a
key premise.
00:05:12
And so you mentioned my background.
00:05:14
And so I studied engineering, worked at
Boeing for, as a manufacturing and process
00:05:18
engineer for a little while.
00:05:19
And then I was with a engineering services
company, FEV for a little over five years
00:05:23
and working with companies to develop
these future technologies.
00:05:26
So whether it's battery or propulsion or
any, any propulsion system, component
00:05:31
system, controls, integration in the
vehicle, that was the sweet spot.
00:05:36
worked with a lot of companies to develop
these technologies, but then often saw
00:05:42
this challenge of how do you actually put
that into practice?
00:05:44
How do you implement that technology in a
way that allows your company to grow and
00:05:49
scale and build a sustainable business,
but also to make the impact that you're
00:05:52
trying to make in the world.
00:05:54
And that was continues to be a challenge
and something that I saw over and over.
00:06:00
And so that's what part of what drew me to
Edison is the focus on solving this
00:06:04
problem for companies and taking things
from.
00:06:06
prototype and proof of concept into
production and then executing as their low
00:06:10
to medium volume production partner.
00:06:14
And that's, it's a tough, it's a tough
space.
00:06:17
And the question is, how do you do that?
00:06:19
Well, and one of the, the core beliefs
that I have, and I think, I think the team
00:06:25
here has is that there's a lot of
uncertainty in the system.
00:06:28
No one really knows if anyone gives you
projection for EV volumes.
00:06:32
And we're talking about, Hey, people have
undershot or they've overshot
00:06:36
It was expected that someone was going to
deliver this many vehicles and they've
00:06:38
delivered this.
00:06:39
Like that, none of that surprising.
00:06:41
Cause I don't think anyone actually knows
how this plays out.
00:06:43
That it's too complex of a system with
regulations and customer and public
00:06:48
perception technology that's being
developed across several axes,
00:06:52
infrastructure and geopolitical stuff like
it's a super complex system here.
00:06:59
So the core belief that we're, we're kind
of growing off is well, in a complex
00:07:05
system.
00:07:06
with a lot of uncertainty, choose a path
that gives you optionality, choose the
00:07:10
path that allows you to wait to make your
big bets.
00:07:13
And that's essentially what we do coming
in and working with our customers and our
00:07:16
partners is to deliver for them in a very
reliable way, in a structured way.
00:07:22
We come from our sister company, PJ
Wallbank Springs has been an automotive
00:07:25
supplier for 40 plus years.
00:07:27
They provide the biggest players in the
world, 20, 25 million components per year
00:07:32
that they deliver at a very high standard.
00:07:35
We know what quality looks like and we
incorporate that into the products we
00:07:38
build, but we do it in a flexible way.
00:07:40
And we intentionally limit upfront
capital.
00:07:43
We try to look for what is the most
effective way to build these initial units
00:07:50
that allow you the flexibility and the
freedom to miss projections and to make
00:07:55
adjustments and to learn that, Hey, your
product's not evolving the way you
00:07:58
originally hoped or thought it would.
00:08:00
The market's not evolving at the pace that
you had thought it would.
00:08:03
And
00:08:04
not to make a upfront rigid bet and then
sink the company because that doesn't come
00:08:08
true.
00:08:10
Yeah, and I think you're there's a lot of
themes you're kind of talking about right
00:08:14
now around just what we've been seeing in
the past year, really the last six months
00:08:19
around, especially electric vehicles.
00:08:22
And I think just the auto industry in
general, a lot, there's been a lot of
00:08:25
headlines about electric vehicles aren't
selling.
00:08:27
And there's truth to that.
00:08:28
But I think the bigger picture really is
just cars in general have come to
00:08:33
a much slower rate of growth than we had
been seeing the last couple of years with
00:08:37
interest rates and some of the other
things that have really changed to make
00:08:41
that a little bit harder for especially
manufacturers.
00:08:44
What are some of the maybe surprises that
you've seen at Edison around how quickly
00:08:52
maybe some of these things have changed
and how you have been able to help maybe
00:08:56
some of these clients?
00:08:57
around these unexpected changes or
slowdowns.
00:09:00
Cause I think what we're talking about,
especially when you look at the market
00:09:03
today from even like a year ago, it was
starting to slow down, but it wasn't quite
00:09:08
like what we're seeing right now,
especially like in headlines and
00:09:11
everything else about it, just making it
sound like the industry has come to pretty
00:09:15
much a complete stop.
00:09:19
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:09:20
So the biggest, biggest surprises or
change.
00:09:23
I mean, so we've certainly had customers
ranging from, I don't know, there's a
00:09:28
customer that we were working with who was
seeking a series B funding that
00:09:31
unfortunately didn't close and is no
longer around.
00:09:34
There was a global automotive OEM that we
worked with for close to a year and then
00:09:41
strategies and budgets change and suddenly
the product that they thought they were
00:09:45
going to bring into market changes.
00:09:46
But
00:09:48
It's not super surprising necessarily,
because that's just that happens right in
00:09:51
an ecosystem like we're living in right
now.
00:09:54
I think the, it's been interesting to see
how perception has changed and how the
00:10:01
positioning has changed.
00:10:03
So that was, I think one of the main
things that I've recognized over the past,
00:10:07
say 18, 24 months or so is talking with
founders and investors and things like
00:10:17
that.
00:10:17
But people like that and the tone, whether
it's on a podcast platform or behind
00:10:22
closed doors and in a private setting, it
has shifted a bit in that you're seeing
00:10:28
fewer of these big bets, right?
00:10:30
And fewer of these companies that are
coming out and saying, hey, we're going to
00:10:34
launch and it's going to be this volume
and we're going to take on Tesla within
00:10:38
the next 12 months or I don't know what,
but like it, you know, the, the skyrocket
00:10:43
hockey stick, there's still companies that
are.
00:10:46
doing that, but this general idea seems to
be growing a bit that like, no, we don't
00:10:52
know and we want to grow.
00:10:53
We want to be big, but at the same time,
we want to be efficient with our capital
00:10:57
and we want to buy ourselves a runway that
allows us to grow at a rate that makes it
00:11:03
worthwhile for our venture capital
partners if that's what you're using to
00:11:07
generate capital and fund your activities,
but also at a responsible rate that allows
00:11:13
you to account for changes in the market
without...
00:11:16
without being underwater quickly.
00:11:19
So I think that's the biggest change I've
seen is in the perception, right?
00:11:24
And the people who are coming to us now
and saying, it used to be, hey, we're
00:11:27
gonna produce a thousand of these three
months from now, and now it's, well, I
00:11:29
think we're gonna build 25 of these and
then 50, and then 100, then 500, then a
00:11:34
thousand.
00:11:35
And then that's what we can get behind a
bit more and be like, okay, now we're
00:11:38
talking a bit more reasonably than what we
were before.
00:11:42
Yeah, and I know your team is the whole
company or is it just you based in the
00:11:46
Michigan area?
00:11:49
Yeah.
00:11:49
So the, we are in port here on Michigan,
which is about an hour north of Okay.
00:11:53
That's why I thought it's kind of been
interesting because we've had some people
00:11:56
on, um, even the last couple of episodes,
we had John McElroy, who's, uh, from auto
00:12:01
line based in the Detroit area.
00:12:03
And he was kind of talking about what he's
seen.
00:12:05
And obviously with kind of the big three
talking about pulling back, still
00:12:10
investing in electrification for a
long-term strategy, kind of like what
00:12:12
you're talking about, but
00:12:14
kind of doubling back down onto hybrids
and maybe plug-in hybrid technology.
00:12:20
With what you're doing at Edison
Engineering, is it, I know kind of looking
00:12:24
online, there's mentions of hybrids, but
it seems to be mostly around fully
00:12:28
electric vehicles.
00:12:30
Are you seeing kind of a similar thing
where some of your suppliers who have been
00:12:34
all in on electric are just like, maybe we
should take an approach now.
00:12:38
and look at plug-it hybrids or some of
these other technologies, are you still
00:12:41
seeing common interest around fully
electric vehicles for the long-term
00:12:44
solution?
00:12:48
I'd say both.
00:12:50
We aren't necessarily...
00:12:53
We're technology agnostic, I would say, in
that part of the reason why a lot of the
00:12:59
focus has been in the electric and
autonomous space thus far is ultimately
00:13:03
the solution that we're providing, the way
that I explained it, we're filling cracks
00:13:08
in the supply chain that are forming.
00:13:09
So there is an existing automotive supply
chain, including our sister company,
00:13:14
that...
00:13:15
works really well and it has worked for a
very long time.
00:13:19
But it depends on a few things, which is
consistent, predictable volumes that are
00:13:27
actually going to play out.
00:13:29
And we're seeing several forces that have
adjusted that.
00:13:31
So electrification is one of them.
00:13:33
Fragmentation of supply base and the OEMs
and different markets and things.
00:13:38
And so these different forces have added,
have created some cracks in the supply
00:13:42
chain.
00:13:42
And that's Edison's filling
00:13:44
one or a few of those cracks.
00:13:46
And most of those tend to be in the new
technology area.
00:13:48
So that's why, at least outwardly facing,
that's a lot of the work we're doing.
00:13:52
But we have similarly interesting
discussions about companies getting into
00:13:57
the hybridization space.
00:13:58
Also, existing companies who are building
internal combustion or conventional
00:14:04
vehicle components and systems that are
declining in volumes.
00:14:07
And now suddenly the math around their
assembly processes are changing.
00:14:13
We tend to be a good fit for that as well.
00:14:16
But I mean, I'm personally, and then also
the company, completely technology
00:14:20
agnostic.
00:14:21
And I think when we talked about this
previously, right, like I love electric
00:14:26
vehicles.
00:14:27
They're a lot of fun to drive.
00:14:28
They do a lot of good things and a lot of
good use cases.
00:14:31
They certainly aren't the answer for all
situations right now.
00:14:35
They might be in the future.
00:14:37
But there are several assumptions and
things that need to be overcome to get to
00:14:41
that point.
00:14:42
including costs and infrastructure and
stuff that everyone talks about in the
00:14:46
space and back to this framework right
about in a world of uncertainty don't
00:14:54
limit your options like that's generally
the way that I've thought about and this
00:14:58
has been fueled by some past podcasts but
the way that I think about this
00:15:03
decarbonization effort is yeah invest
heavily in electrification let's continue
00:15:07
to grow and improve the technology improve
the infrastructure but it's
00:15:11
unnecessarily choose that there needs to
be a single winner in this decarbonization
00:15:15
effort.
00:15:16
And that's, I think what the industry or
what kind of the correcting force in the
00:15:19
market seems to be showing right now as
well.
00:15:21
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you.
00:15:24
Um, and I think, uh, not to go down too
much of a tangent.
00:15:29
I know last time we spoke, I believe you
had just either taken delivery or about to
00:15:35
take delivery of a, I think it was the
Jeep Wrangler four by E.
00:15:40
I was curious if you did take a delivery
of that.
00:15:43
And I would just be kind of curious as
what has been your experience with that
00:15:47
vehicle, kind of talking about this
technology and talking about some of these
00:15:52
companies that are taking a different kind
of the full approach.
00:15:57
And I just be curious what your experience
has been as a consumer.
00:16:02
Yeah, I think there's a few interesting
things to point to here.
00:16:04
So on overall fantastic driving.
00:16:08
Experience like and compared to the
conventional Wrangler It's it's so much
00:16:14
better when you have a nice charge and you
have the ability Yeah, you have that low
00:16:17
end torque and the two systems working
together From a fun perspective.
00:16:22
It's great.
00:16:23
It's also there's challenges Controls this
or not that the calibration is Leaves a
00:16:30
little for desire to be desired.
00:16:32
There's also right now.
00:16:33
There's a recall waiting on a software
flash it's like I can't charge the battery
00:16:36
because
00:16:37
Oh, it could start on fire, which that's
less than I ideally.
00:16:41
So I have a worse vehicle than I would if
I'd had no battery because I have
00:16:44
additional weight that I'm looking at as
I'm so.
00:16:46
I get what you're saying, though.
00:16:47
It's totally valid.
00:16:48
Yeah.
00:16:49
And I think that's that was a big topic we
talked about in the last podcast, which
00:16:54
was around just software updates and
having to deal with it.
00:16:57
Because I assume this one's you have to
take into a dealer to get the update done,
00:17:03
correct?
00:17:05
Yeah, and I mean you see it too like the
dealer network, right?
00:17:09
Especially the Stellantis organization.
00:17:11
They don't have a ton of electrification
experience, especially in the US.
00:17:14
So it's not like you're dealing with high
voltage experts for the most part when
00:17:18
you're bringing in.
00:17:18
I mean there's a few of them, but not
everyone at the dealership is a high
00:17:22
voltage expert.
00:17:23
So that's been an interesting learning
opportunity, but I think maybe the most
00:17:28
interesting takeaway I've had.
00:17:29
So I have changed my job location as well
as my home location.
00:17:35
since I bought, I guess I'm leasing the
vehicles since I, since I started the
00:17:39
lease on it and it has completely changed
the value proposition for me.
00:17:44
So my previous location for better, for
worse, unfortunately not for that.
00:17:51
So it's, it's still, it's still a really
fun vehicle and I love driving it around.
00:17:55
We try to optimize and use it for the
local shorter cause it has 27 or so miles
00:18:01
of, of range nominally.
00:18:02
So
00:18:03
You can get to a decent amount of places,
but that type of driving made up a lot of
00:18:09
my driving in the old situation.
00:18:11
Even my commute, it was like 35 miles
round trip or something like that.
00:18:15
So I had most of the way there.
00:18:18
Now I live in an area that I have a second
kid coming and I want a little bit more
00:18:25
space.
00:18:25
I'm not too far from my things.
00:18:29
I don't live as close to all the stuff
that I used to do.
00:18:31
So the daily driving is a little longer.
00:18:33
And I also don't live in Port Huron, which
is where the organization is.
00:18:37
So I, I now have a fairly long highway
commute when I go into work and, uh,
00:18:44
Wrangler is not an aerodynamically
efficient vehicle by any means.
00:18:47
Also 27 miles of range doesn't do much for
me when I'm driving whatever it is, like
00:18:52
70 miles one way.
00:18:53
So, uh, it's not the right vehicle for me
in this.
00:18:56
It was the right vehicle in the old
situation.
00:18:59
Like now it's likely a f***.
00:19:02
full hybrid would be if I could optimize
based on, if I did the optimization
00:19:07
problem based on the grid I have here as
well as my driving, like my commuter
00:19:12
vehicle I believe should be a full hybrid
or even a battery electric vehicle with a
00:19:17
reasonable range would be better.
00:19:19
Interesting, gotcha.
00:19:21
And sorry, I didn't realize, I'd heard
something, but I didn't realize the
00:19:24
severity of the recall for the four by E.
00:19:28
And that is kind of one of the interesting
things that
00:19:32
I kind of, I, I see the value proposition
of plug-in hybrids, but I, I feel like
00:19:37
I've kind of gotten back and I just had
curiosity.
00:19:39
Do you plug it in pretty regularly or
would you just, yeah.
00:19:43
I mean, when it, when I can, yes.
00:19:45
Cause I mean, in part because I believe
the sustainability impact.
00:19:48
Um, but then also it's just a lot more fun
to drive when it has a full charge rate.
00:19:53
Well, it's interesting because we've had a
couple of guests on that kind of are.
00:19:57
very pro plug-in hybrid.
00:19:58
And then there's also, I think it's
starting to change, but there's some
00:20:01
pretty good statistics.
00:20:02
And I feel like you being who you are and
working in the industry, you would
00:20:06
actually plug it in, but there there've
been some pretty good statistics showing
00:20:09
like people even with plug-in hybrids
don't even plug them in that much.
00:20:12
And some of that had to do with maybe they
don't have a place to plug in overnight
00:20:15
and other reasons.
00:20:17
But yeah, it's funny because now I have
our daily road tripper kind of vehicles, a
00:20:24
Tesla Model Y.
00:20:26
And then our kind of fun, uh, cause, uh,
being, I actually, I don't know if I told
00:20:31
you this, uh, I live in Bend, Oregon now,
which is much more kind of rural and kind
00:20:34
of a ski town and there's a lot of great
hiking and kind of forest road.
00:20:38
So for those adventures, I, we actually
have a 1987 Land Rover Defender 90.
00:20:44
And so those things can not be more
farther apart, but also more fun in their
00:20:48
own specific ways.
00:20:50
And I, I kind of, uh, I am actually
planning.
00:20:53
We had another guest on here that
specializes in electrification of old
00:20:56
defenders.
00:20:57
And so I'm looking at maybe doing that
with ours, but it to me has just become
00:21:01
like pretty clear that one or the other.
00:21:03
I mean, the beauty of that Land Rover is
for as much crap as British automakers get
00:21:10
for bad electrics in this car.
00:21:12
It pretty much just goes to the battery
and then the headlights.
00:21:15
And I will be honest right now, it is not
running cause the alternator just broke.
00:21:19
But other than that, there is so little
wiring in this car.
00:21:22
that it is really kind of just interesting
showing the, in some ways, I think almost
00:21:27
the peak of like the fully internal
combustion engine versus like the fully
00:21:32
electric system and just having kind of a
product for each use case.
00:21:37
And, uh, I, I definitely think plug-in
hybrids will be a thing and definitely a
00:21:42
kind of maybe stop gap or at least a way
to get people introduce the idea of
00:21:47
plugging in and charging, but it's, it's
just kind of interesting here, your
00:21:50
experience with it and just.
00:21:52
what we've been seeing in the space
around, um, whether people are going to, I
00:21:58
think there's definitely a good portion,
uh, as you probably know, like the middle
00:22:01
of the country where, uh, the charging
infrastructure still isn't that great and
00:22:06
people are kind of hesitant to go fully
with it, but there's also the use case of
00:22:09
like, Hey, it's a lot less than gas in
theory, if you get the right, uh, plug in
00:22:13
hybrid and like you're talking about it
meets your needs.
00:22:15
So I think there's definitely an interest
there with
00:22:19
Yeah, I mean it was a 110 outlet that I
used and it charges overnight.
00:22:23
It's a 15 kilowatt hour pack.
00:22:25
I feel good about that from the materials
and the effort that goes into building
00:22:29
that pack.
00:22:29
And yeah, if I lived in the current, in
the old situation, it's the perfect
00:22:32
vehicle, I think, but, uh, just, just not
right now.
00:22:35
Yeah.
00:22:35
And you said it was a lease.
00:22:36
So what are you, I mean, it sounds like
maybe you still have a little bit of time,
00:22:39
but you're probably leaning towards just
kind of more of the traditional hybrid.
00:22:43
If you were to do another one or have you
given a much thought of what you would
00:22:47
replace it with?
00:22:50
Yeah, so we live in a suburban-like area,
right?
00:22:54
We'll have two kids here soon.
00:22:57
And actually, both vehicles are up for
consideration of what we want to do.
00:23:02
And I did the one vehicle thing for some
time back in, which worked well during the
00:23:09
COVID time, but not currently given our
boundary conditions.
00:23:12
So we need two vehicles.
00:23:14
And if you think about the primary
drivers, right, of what goes into the
00:23:17
decision, it's I make a...
00:23:20
long highway commute two to three times a
week.
00:23:25
We need some way to get our family into
the vehicle and move in a safe manner
00:23:31
around.
00:23:33
We'll take a handful of quote unquote road
trips, which is probably a couple hour
00:23:39
drive in one direction with the full
family per year.
00:23:43
And so there's a whole conversation to be
had about
00:23:47
What's a rational approach and how do you
rationally optimize those different
00:23:52
things?
00:23:52
What's a fun car?
00:23:53
Ultimately where we yeah, where we seem to
be settling is like a reasonably cheap,
00:24:00
affordable highway vehicle that I, you
know, drive ideally a full hybrid.
00:24:06
Like I said, I think that's I think that's
an efficient application for it for that.
00:24:13
And then the larger SUV of some sort.
00:24:18
I mean, I guess electric could be nice,
but at the same time, yeah, the cost is a
00:24:22
factor.
00:24:23
So some type of an electrified SUV and a
highway vehicle is likely what we'll go
00:24:30
with.
00:24:32
But I mean, there's so many different
factors that go into that, right?
00:24:34
I mean, if it is my work vehicle, it needs
to be professional enough, right?
00:24:41
Like it has to be.
00:24:43
So yeah.
00:24:46
And also like if...
00:24:47
If I get a high highway optimized vehicle
for that work scenario, it's likely going
00:24:51
to be a small vehicle, which then likely
does not make it the thing that we take on
00:24:56
road trips.
00:24:57
So then the other vehicle has to have some
way to be able to go on road trips.
00:25:00
Right.
00:25:00
Just kind of the right balance of the
purpose and the need for each vehicle.
00:25:05
Um, yeah, kind of rambling, but that's how
we've thought about it so far.
00:25:08
No, no, I get that.
00:25:09
That's always kind of a tough decision.
00:25:11
And, uh, I mean, for us, I had looked
originally at getting something a little
00:25:15
sportier than the Y, but.
00:25:16
We have now three at the time, two dogs
and one's a very large dog.
00:25:22
So we kind of needed something with a
hatchback.
00:25:25
And, um, I mean, I've only had my car now
for pretty much maybe 18 months, maybe a
00:25:32
little under, and we've already put over
40 miles on it.
00:25:36
Um, and then the defender, we, we've put a
bit of miles, but that's actually just
00:25:42
been around town and up into the mountain,
so it's
00:25:45
It's definitely a lot less, but, um, that
also is just, I mean, that's a whole
00:25:51
different experience.
00:25:52
It takes five minutes to get it started.
00:25:53
It's like, it's a great weekend vehicle
where it's, you want to enjoy a classic,
00:25:57
uh, off-roading truck, but it's not
practical when you're in a rush or you
00:26:04
have to drive a few hours, um, but it is
so much fun, just the character and the,
00:26:09
uh, history behind those vehicles.
00:26:11
With.
00:26:12
Yeah.
00:26:12
I mean, if I can.
00:26:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:15
I mean, so you're making me think of
something.
00:26:17
And this is one of the things that sits
with me pretty deep in my stomach at a
00:26:20
time of like, right, you're talking,
you're listening to this, right?
00:26:24
You hear two people who are obviously in
the sustainable transportation space.
00:26:28
You can hear several things here that are
not optimized for sustainability, right?
00:26:32
For sure.
00:26:32
The fact that I live far from work and I
have a highway commute, not great.
00:26:35
The fact that I live in a suburban area,
you have a lot of people who say, well,
00:26:39
everyone should be thrown into city
centers and there's some validity there.
00:26:43
But this is a something I'm still
struggling with and exploring.
00:26:47
I think I've gotten the closest guy.
00:26:49
Guy Larry Burns has been a good coach of
sorts and has been a podcast guest.
00:26:54
A few times he, he led R and D for GM and
was right at the heart of the, when, when
00:26:59
they developed the skateboard platform
back in 2000, he, he was leading the team
00:27:03
and started kind of the electric vehicle
revolution, but talking with him about it,
00:27:07
he's like, well, somehow in this whole
conversation we're missing.
00:27:13
We're missing the suburban and or rural
use case, which isn't somehow there isn't
00:27:21
like, I don't live here because I hate the
environment.
00:27:25
I do care and I want to do the right
things.
00:27:26
I'm like, I'm making these trying to make
these conscious decisions with the way I
00:27:30
transport myself and my family as well as
the way I live my life.
00:27:34
But at the same time, somehow in my life,
I've come to the conclusion that having
00:27:39
some land for my kids to run around,
having a quiet area.
00:27:42
having a safer place for less fewer
vehicles running around, that matters to
00:27:48
me.
00:27:51
That conclusion and my perspective has
somehow been missed for the most part in
00:27:56
the sustainability transportation
landscape.
00:27:59
I don't know exactly what to do with it
because I know this is super complex, but
00:28:02
that's an issue that I've been struggling
with.
00:28:05
For driving 40 miles in 18, it's a lot
of miles to put on any vehicle.
00:28:09
Right, right.
00:28:10
However, still.
00:28:11
But you still have made.
00:28:12
Yeah.
00:28:13
And I, I completely agree.
00:28:14
I mean, that was, um, yeah.
00:28:16
And I know this is before that.
00:28:18
I mean, uh, like I said, I live in a ski
town now.
00:28:20
I've always been to skiing a lot of just
kind of outdoor sports.
00:28:23
And so, um, before that I had a super
outback about the least sexy, but one of
00:28:29
the most utilitarian cars just for like
sort of the skis in the back go.
00:28:33
It's got all wheel drive, got good enough
ground clearance.
00:28:36
And even then when I was living in
Portland, I was surprised how many miles I
00:28:40
was putting on that thing on a regular
basis.
00:28:43
And I figured, you know what, if I go
electric, I'll bet you do, I'll do
00:28:45
similar, maybe since I won't have to worry
about oil changes and all that stuff,
00:28:50
it'll go up and it did.
00:28:51
And then some I've actually been driving
way more now.
00:28:55
And it's not just because I went to
electric, it's a couple of friends moved
00:28:58
to the Midwest and all these things.
00:28:59
So I've done road trips in it that I
hadn't done previously.
00:29:04
But I mean, that, that was a big thing
reason I pretty much had to choose.
00:29:07
There were, there were other EVs out there
that I thought were cool and stuff, but,
00:29:11
um, the charging infrastructure of the,
uh, I mean, where we are, I mean, you
00:29:16
can't see it now, but a day or two ago,
those trees were covered in snow.
00:29:21
And so, yeah, I need something that I can
go through.
00:29:23
Mound passes pretty easily or easily
enough and not, uh, with snow tires.
00:29:28
I don't have to be too worried about it.
00:29:30
that really just left kind of the model.
00:29:31
Why at the end of it, it's like the only
option there were others that were, I
00:29:34
mean, obviously the Rivian was kind of
cool, but charging infrastructure really
00:29:37
wasn't still there for that thing.
00:29:40
And yeah, it totally came to, um, even
though you go around here and a lot of
00:29:45
people have diesel pickups and all these
things, although now Rivians are a damn
00:29:48
dozen, but at the time it just wasn't that
easy and that feasible to find.
00:29:53
That was about the only thing that could
meet those.
00:29:56
needs where it's like, yeah, I'm going to
have to go a couple hundred miles at
00:30:00
least.
00:30:00
I mean, it's about 150, 180 to get to
Portland from here.
00:30:04
And that is not always in great
conditions.
00:30:07
That'll be with snow.
00:30:08
That'll be with ice.
00:30:09
And I mean, these are exactly what you're
telling that I, and I, I get why some
00:30:14
people don't want to get Tesla, yada, but,
um, it is funny when you start talking
00:30:20
about the rural side of stuff and that
kind of infrastructure and like making it
00:30:24
easier.
00:30:25
Um, bend is a little bit of a weird city
in that the fact that it does have really
00:30:29
good biking infrastructure and stuff like
that, but, um, once you get out of the
00:30:33
city and like I said, you, there's about
one small town between here and Boise,
00:30:39
Idaho, the rest is just open Eastern
Oregon and there's been times I've driven
00:30:44
south of here where I don't even see a car
for hours.
00:30:47
Uh, when I was coming up from Nevada, just
a few, uh, a couple of months ago.
00:30:51
And so it's, it's one of those things that
like,
00:30:53
There really are a few choices that if you
want to go on and, uh, go somewhere remote
00:30:58
or kind of at just kind of, uh, with no
pre-planning that really still, in my
00:31:03
opinion, is the only option you could
maybe get away with a river.
00:31:07
And, but, uh, I mean, my record for doing
a road trip and an EV in a days from here
00:31:13
to Phoenix, which was about, uh, just
under 1200 miles and that's a lot of
00:31:19
driving, I don't care what car you're in.
00:31:21
And that, that pretty much, uh, I mean, I
even, I remember I pulled up, I was in,
00:31:25
God, where was I?
00:31:27
I was, uh, north of Vegas still.
00:31:30
I want to say it was Beattie, Nevada or
something.
00:31:33
I mean, there's so much Nevada that's
especially when you're driving down there,
00:31:35
that's just nothing.
00:31:36
And then you come like, like these small
little gas station oasis is, and there's
00:31:40
now chargers at some of them and I've been
hitting all the Tesla ones, no real issue.
00:31:45
Some of them were the older ones.
00:31:46
So they charge a little bit slower, but it
was always enough that like
00:31:49
I was there for maybe 10, 15 minutes and
I'd be able to drive for another hour and
00:31:52
a half, two hours.
00:31:53
So it's kind of the perfect amount of time
to break up, run, get something wasn't too
00:31:57
big of an issue.
00:31:58
But I pulled into BD and there was a
Rivian and not only was it a Rivian, I
00:32:03
think it was an R1S, which maybe at the
time had just come out.
00:32:07
It was a Rivian R1S and it was towing a
little camper behind it.
00:32:10
And it had pulled up to these charges next
to the Tesla ones.
00:32:13
And unfortunately, that one DC fast
charger was only 60 kilowatts, which...
00:32:19
I mean, you have to know what even that
means for a fast charger, but that one was
00:32:22
broken.
00:32:22
And so there was this Rivian towing a
little camper on a AC charger.
00:32:30
And I just could not, like, I had no idea
how long that guy must've been there to
00:32:34
get to the next thing.
00:32:35
And I mean, I felt, I mean, it was
beautiful car and I felt bad for the guy.
00:32:39
Um, and maybe that's purposely why he was
telling a camper just to hang out at these
00:32:43
things, but it was just like, yeah, I
don't, uh,
00:32:47
I like the car a lot.
00:32:48
I don't know if it's my favorite car ever
by any means for the model Y, but it was
00:32:52
like, yeah, for my needs.
00:32:53
That was about the only thing that I could
do these road trips or do, um, high speed,
00:32:59
uh, or not high speed, but, uh, going out
to really rural parts of, uh, actually all
00:33:05
over the country, but especially Eastern
and, uh, Southern Oregon and not have to
00:33:09
worry about it.
00:33:11
And I think, uh, that's, and I totally
get, if people are doing that, like that's
00:33:14
where a plugin hybrid, um,
00:33:16
totally makes sense.
00:33:17
And, uh, I, it's kind of interesting.
00:33:19
My mother-in-law just got the Volvo.
00:33:23
God, I can't remember what it is.
00:33:24
XC 90, the plug and hybrid one and really
beautiful car on the inside.
00:33:28
But of course the one thing it has issues
with is the actual battery.
00:33:32
She had to take it in and all this stuff,
the actual, uh, internal combustion engine
00:33:36
car, part of it worked great.
00:33:38
And it was funny because, uh, she had
replaced it with a Mercedes and, uh, about
00:33:44
six months ago.
00:33:45
Her husband, my father-in-law had just
replaced their other Mercedes with a model
00:33:50
Y and what was really, which is obviously
not a common, uh, use case for a lot of
00:33:56
people replacing our going electric.
00:33:57
But what was so fascinating to me was she
was so disappointed in the charging of her
00:34:02
car because the AC charging was so much
slower than the Tesla and all these other
00:34:06
things.
00:34:07
And they go on a lot of road trips too.
00:34:08
We met them out in steamboat Springs
recently in Colorado.
00:34:12
And so I think for them having
00:34:14
the combustion engine side of it for sure
made sense, but it is just kind of
00:34:17
interesting where, uh, you, you talk about
these experiences that either defy what
00:34:22
people need a car for, or you have these
companies and then you have these
00:34:27
companies who are building these plugin
hybrids that, um, I, I think it makes so
00:34:32
much sense on paper, but then the
execution of it or some other issue kind
00:34:36
of comes up that makes it just like, well,
maybe they should have just bought a
00:34:39
combustion engine car from a consumer side
for that experience or
00:34:43
an EV but I think for a lot of people it
just is it needs to be an easier
00:34:47
experience where you don't have to Pull a
Rivian up pretty much a hundred thousand
00:34:53
dollar car and then wait five hours for it
to charge and an AC thing Just is I know
00:34:57
and I realize that's not the majority of
people's experiences But you see something
00:35:01
like that and like I don't care where you
live That's not gonna catch on if that's
00:35:05
what you have to do To do these things.
00:35:08
Yeah, sure It's I think it's still early,
but I had some friends
00:35:13
I think out your way who working on a
hydrogen fuel cell truck that I think will
00:35:17
certain There's a lot that goes into this
I think the initial reaction should be
00:35:22
skepticism when you hear what I just said
of a hydrogen fuel side truck but I think
00:35:27
they have the technology to actually make
this happen in communities like where
00:35:31
you're living which I definitely keeping a
keeping eyes on and then Yeah, another one
00:35:36
of the key trends that we've seen a lot is
a Ton of different types of trailers are
00:35:40
getting electrified right now
00:35:41
for some of the reason that you mentioned,
right, of whether it's a camper trailer,
00:35:46
or if it's, you've seen some of that work
even in the long haul trucking space, or a
00:35:50
few different applications, but throwing
some battery, e-axles, having some way to
00:35:56
get regen and provide, hopefully at least
offset the weight of your trailer, because
00:36:01
yeah, right now the tech just isn't there
for any vehicle really to be able to tow
00:36:05
and also get reasonable range.
00:36:07
Yeah, I think, I mean,
00:36:09
talking about that obviously the big one
was the cyber truck and that's what
00:36:12
everyone was kind of so hoping for was to
have that range and I guess maybe it has
00:36:15
this battery extender we'll see what
happens there but yeah I mean that I think
00:36:19
is really the one area that for
electrification and I get it that's a lot
00:36:25
of batteries and a lot of weight to be
hauling around if you only tow a few times
00:36:29
a year which is the case for most people
and I mean I've even done stuff with our
00:36:34
Model Y obviously it's only a
00:36:37
a couple thousand pounds, but honestly, as
long as you don't care if it's just around
00:36:42
town or you're only going like an hour
driving with a tone with electric vehicle
00:36:46
is so easy.
00:36:47
You don't even feel the difference for the
most part.
00:36:49
You like, if anything, you might notice
you accelerate slightly slower, but it's
00:36:52
still so much faster.
00:36:54
And so I think from, I think what most
people, when most people talk about towing
00:36:59
an EV, I think they, I think it's just one
more reason like the naysayers say, Oh,
00:37:04
this is why they'll never catch on.
00:37:06
And in practice, that's a pretty rare
need.
00:37:10
But when you look at the commercial side
of it, obviously, I mean, a buddy of mine,
00:37:13
he's, uh, he works in Volvo trucks and he
lives in the Midwest now.
00:37:17
And so it is always kind of here.
00:37:18
Interesting hearing what they have to deal
with.
00:37:21
And some of this talk about
electrification and then the level of
00:37:24
skepticism is just off the roof,
especially with the truck buyers, but then
00:37:30
you
00:37:31
there is a reality where it's like, well,
I don't know if, and it, and I've seen
00:37:33
some of these things now where you put a
battery.
00:37:35
So it's kind of like, you almost have a
plug in hybrid for a traditional truck in
00:37:38
the trailer, which could be kind of that
stepping stone and possibly work.
00:37:42
But I, I think inherently, uh, I think
once again, on paper and in a.
00:37:50
Science experiment and in limited use,
like hydrogen makes so much sense, but
00:37:55
it's just been the actual harvesting of
the hydrogen and the storage of the
00:37:59
hydrogen and all these.
00:38:01
other things that just make the
infrastructure really difficult.
00:38:04
And even then so many people have been
talking about that.
00:38:07
That's the innovation.
00:38:07
Oh, okay.
00:38:08
Well, then maybe that's it because the,
the thing I've at least seen on my side,
00:38:12
um, through quite a few coworkers and
others is, uh, and some of them are in
00:38:18
kind of natural gas space is they're
talking about converting natural gas.
00:38:22
Um, a lot of it, natural gas pipelines and
some of these other things to hydrogen and
00:38:27
just inherently.
00:38:29
That's a much harder task than people
realize when you're dealing with the
00:38:31
smallest element and it just doesn't have
that same thing.
00:38:35
But I, yeah, I would love, I mean, if
there's anything you can share about what
00:38:38
your friends are working on, that'd be
great, but I'd love to hear more about
00:38:40
that soon just because yeah, I think in
trucking that to me for sure makes the
00:38:44
most sense, it doesn't seem very practical
for, uh, cars right now.
00:38:50
But I'd be curious if you've been, I think
they should be coming out of, uh, the
00:38:55
stealth mode to here in the next.
00:38:57
month or two.
00:38:57
So I'll shoot you a note and maybe you can
chat.
00:38:59
For sure.
00:39:00
I mean, have you been getting, I know you
guys work a lot with, uh, to some extent
00:39:06
chargers as charging technology too.
00:39:08
Have you been getting a lot of interest or
questions around that for like the fleet
00:39:13
scale or like the large commercial side of
stuff?
00:39:17
Yeah, so I mean, when a charger stuff that
we've had a conversation and or work on,
00:39:23
it's ranging from, you know, simple level
two charger to faster chargers to some of
00:39:28
these battery buffered solutions, right?
00:39:30
Where you have, um, it's a couple of
different technologies approaching this in
00:39:34
different ways, right?
00:39:34
Of having some type of a bank of energy.
00:39:38
So then you can flush it into the vehicle
and then trickle charge it over time, uh,
00:39:42
and minimize the fast transient draw on
the grid, right?
00:39:47
Um,
00:39:48
also mobile charging stations.
00:39:51
There's a few different flavors of these
of something.
00:39:55
And some of these are longer term
applications.
00:39:59
Some of them are stop gaps for upgrading
infrastructure to be able to handle
00:40:05
additional load for charging multiple
heavy duty trucks.
00:40:09
I get significant rates.
00:40:10
So you have trailerized products or like
micro grid type products that
00:40:16
Yeah, there's a lot of these things in
work and being rolled out.
00:40:19
And I guess I don't know what the sales
numbers look like.
00:40:20
They seem to make sense because it seems
like the grid upgrades are taking a long
00:40:26
time in some places and you need some way
to charge your vehicles.
00:40:29
If you're going to introduce all your
vehicles into a fleet.
00:40:32
Um, but yeah, we've certainly seen
interest on the assembly side because
00:40:34
these are, these fall perfectly into the
category of like reasonably small veil
00:40:38
volume, no one's really built this type of
product before and you need a capital
00:40:44
efficient, flexible approach to do it
well.
00:40:47
Yeah, I think there's been a lot of
interesting conversations that we've even
00:40:50
had on this podcast around the battery
backup side of stuff, obviously adds a
00:40:54
huge cost, but when you're dealing with
these commercial epic applications, I
00:40:58
think what most people just don't realize
is how many, uh, like you were talking
00:41:02
about supply chain issues for sure that
utility grade products are still dealing
00:41:07
with.
00:41:08
But the bigger thing too is just like
demand charges and all these other kind
00:41:11
of, uh, grid related costs when you're
delivering power, especially at
00:41:15
different times of the day that most
people don't realize that all of a sudden
00:41:19
make these million dollar, very expensive
battery, large battery installations
00:41:24
actually cost effective much quicker than
most people would realize just because
00:41:29
it's so much easier just to drop a battery
plug in the right infrastructure, let
00:41:32
software do some of the gaps that need to
be filled.
00:41:35
And all of a sudden these large, uh,
charging sites can be pretty financially.
00:41:42
worth the time and the investment to make
it happen.
00:41:45
Have you been dealing with kind of any of
the interests on the utility side around
00:41:49
some of these charges or trying to find
ways to make the battery kind of fill that
00:41:53
gap for your customers?
00:41:57
Yeah, we haven't so far been tied too
closely directly to the utilities.
00:42:01
It's primarily been the providers who are
looking for a solution or some way to
00:42:06
manufacture the product and then they're
managing the relationship with the utility
00:42:11
or whoever is doing the application work.
00:42:13
Gotcha.
00:42:14
And then with, I guess we do talk a lot
about the level two, the AC versus the DC
00:42:20
charging.
00:42:22
Is there anything that you're kind of
seeing from your clients around a
00:42:25
technology?
00:42:26
that they're most interested.
00:42:27
Is it more on the commercial kind of DC
fast charge side or is it a pretty healthy
00:42:32
mix of both?
00:42:36
I think it's a mix.
00:42:37
I mean, you know this probably better than
I do, right?
00:42:40
But like anything, the charging solution
needs to be optimized for the use case.
00:42:47
For sure.
00:42:48
And you need to understand at what cadence
will vehicles be coming through a given
00:42:54
area, what type of and number of vehicles,
how long can they stay there, and have a
00:42:59
mix of solutions often at these sites that
allow you to put together a total.
00:43:05
charging package that actually meets it.
00:43:07
And it's not actually even as simple as I
just explained, right?
00:43:10
Because you also need to have the math of
when and how much is going to cost you to
00:43:15
pull energy from the grid and how much can
you reliably get at a certain time, right?
00:43:19
So like, there's, I think there has to be
a mix of solutions.
00:43:25
And yeah, you're sure you have your level
two overnight stuff when it makes sense,
00:43:30
but also you often need to inject some
type of faster speed.
00:43:34
DC fast charge type stuff.
00:43:36
If you're going to have a solution that
actually meets the needs of a given fleet.
00:43:40
For sure.
00:43:40
Um, and kind of one of those things, I
mean, what we've all been talking about
00:43:44
around, whether it's the charging
technology or the actual manufacturing of
00:43:47
the cars, I'm kind of curious as someone
who's so close to the manufacturing side,
00:43:52
like what, with what you're seeing right
now, I think it still seems to be you're
00:43:57
talking with a lot of these clients about
the longer term focus versus some of the
00:44:01
kind of the short term market instability.
00:44:04
Where are you seeing or what do you see as
like in five years where the EV space
00:44:09
might be or what some of the questions
that your clients are kind of coming up to
00:44:13
you about how to kind of get to that
longer term vision and that stability
00:44:17
versus getting distracted by some of these
kind of short-term things happening in the
00:44:22
space.
00:44:26
Yeah, I don't know, but the overall
industry, it's hard to say.
00:44:30
It feels like, and I don't know exactly
what data is coming together to give me
00:44:36
this feeling, but it feels like some of
these tangential industries, and that's
00:44:40
where, given the volumes I focus on, this
is where I spend more of my time thinking
00:44:45
and researching.
00:44:46
The mass market automotive, yeah, it's
what our sister company supports a lot,
00:44:49
but if someone's producing millions of
vehicles per year, that's probably not a
00:44:53
right fit for our philosophy.
00:44:55
I tend to spend more time thinking about
medium duty electrification.
00:44:58
I mentioned work trucks.
00:45:00
Think about things like ag and
construction and mining or aviation,
00:45:05
marine applications, these types of
things.
00:45:09
And it varies.
00:45:14
Even in those industries, it varies
widely.
00:45:16
We get a lot of interest in forklifts or
port equipment of some sort or ground.
00:45:21
ground vehicles for airport applications.
00:45:24
Where it's like, oh yeah, it seems like
we're making a push towards electrifying
00:45:26
these, which makes sense.
00:45:27
And those types of vehicles actually often
are different in that they stay in the
00:45:32
field for so long that you're probably
retrofitting those vehicles, not producing
00:45:36
a bunch of new electric vehicles.
00:45:38
And it feels like there's a use case and a
business case that makes a lot of sense,
00:45:45
but they've still been moving slower than
I would have expected.
00:45:48
I don't know exactly.
00:45:50
what's driving that, whether it's an
infrastructure piece or it's a skepticism
00:45:54
piece on the side of the customer who's
trying to understand how they're going to
00:45:58
integrate these vehicles or this new
approach into their business, right?
00:46:02
Because it's not as simple as go buy a
bunch of electric vehicles and then
00:46:06
replace one for one what you're doing with
internal combustion in your vehicle.
00:46:11
It's not, there's more that needs to
change when you introduce electric
00:46:15
vehicles into a fleet than simply the
vehicle.
00:46:18
You need to
00:46:19
your optimization scheme for your fleet,
the training for your team, the way in
00:46:26
which you're having vehicles come in and
out and planning paths, routes, and all
00:46:30
that type of stuff has to change.
00:46:32
So maybe that's a piece of it where people
are still trying to figure out that
00:46:34
optimization piece and they're scared off.
00:46:37
But within five years, I'm optimistic that
these, what I like to call kind of like
00:46:43
the obvious electrification markets, the
places where you have captive fleets that
00:46:47
are going
00:46:48
out and back coming to a central location.
00:46:51
I mean, if wireless charging takes off,
then it's a slam dunk, just park where you
00:46:54
need to, even if you need to plug it in,
it's not an issue.
00:46:57
I'd like to think, and my guess would be
within the next five years that these
00:47:00
types of markets would have very high
penetration rates.
00:47:04
Interesting, and it's while the variety of
industries you mentioned from ag to
00:47:10
aerospace, what kind of with what you see
and where you're working, what has been
00:47:16
kind of maybe the
00:47:18
most surprising industry that has shown a
strong interest for electrification.
00:47:29
Yeah, so maybe the question of surprising
to whom.
00:47:32
So the I mean, before my previous I think
I mentioned I was at Boeing.
00:47:36
So I came from the aviation space and I.
00:47:39
I had heard about EV tolls and stuff when
I started focusing more on decarbonization
00:47:45
of aviation.
00:47:45
And I still think there's room for
electrifying, maybe even the vertical
00:47:50
takeoff landing, I think the regional
space.
00:47:52
But one of my key takeaways is like,
that's a super tough industry to
00:47:56
decarbonize.
00:47:57
And I don't know if.
00:47:59
There's a lot that needs to get figured
out for that to roll out at scale.
00:48:02
So maybe that was one of the learnings.
00:48:04
Um, the other was, and this is more of, I
think this learning is more about me being
00:48:11
ignorant than the technology and the
market, but how specialized equipment is
00:48:18
right to like, it's any of these
industries you get in, like if you go to,
00:48:22
uh, we do automation, like we do a lot of
autonomous vehicle stuff as well.
00:48:26
So it's a similar use case, but, um,
00:48:29
Go and learn about a port, for example,
like a shipping port.
00:48:33
And it's not like they have like standard
vehicles.
00:48:36
They have specialized vehicles that all do
specific things.
00:48:41
And there's a desire to decarbonize these
are because they're right.
00:48:44
They're often near cities there.
00:48:48
They are these captive fleets that can
stay in one spot.
00:48:51
But also it's not as simple as go buy a
bunch of off the shelf components and
00:48:56
throw it together like this.
00:48:57
Customized solutions, I need to go into
this.
00:48:59
And there's other industries.
00:49:02
Next time you're at the airport, look
around at how many different types of
00:49:05
vehicles there are that are moving your
stuff around.
00:49:09
And I'd say that's been the biggest
learning was just how much specialization
00:49:14
each of these individual industries have
and how much you need to understand the
00:49:18
unique needs and use cases for each of
these vehicles if you're ever going to
00:49:23
actually make a meaningful impact.
00:49:25
For sure.
00:49:26
And with the industries you just
mentioned, since they are, uh, they're in
00:49:30
a commercial, they're very specialized,
they're commercial, but they're usually
00:49:33
doing a similar thing over and over and
over.
00:49:36
Has autonomy been something that these
clients have also kind of brought up to
00:49:41
you when they come to these conversations
around electrification and what does that
00:49:45
usually look like?
00:49:46
Is it still maybe too early or are they
just trying to figure out how to put these
00:49:49
pieces together and maybe do it in like a
step function way?
00:49:55
Yeah, I think the so maybe I'll start
macro and someone I was talking with
00:49:58
recently summarized it well of CS 2024 was
a couple weeks ago, and had a lot of
00:50:05
discussions around electrification, but
also autonomy.
00:50:08
And what they heard, and what I also heard
is that there's been a shift in that
00:50:11
conversation.
00:50:12
And it's less around when will autonomous
vehicle tech be ready.
00:50:17
And it's more about where are the
applications that we can go automate right
00:50:21
now?
00:50:21
Because I mean, like, like the electric
vehicle space.
00:50:25
quote unquote ready for ready for what
ready electric vehicles are.
00:50:28
I like to use the phrase that when my
recent podcast guests hit usually the
00:50:35
grass is green enough.
00:50:36
Right.
00:50:37
There's a lot of there's a lot of
applications that should be electrified
00:50:40
today.
00:50:40
It's a lot of applications that can and
should be automated right now.
00:50:43
Like the tech is very good in certain
situations not for on road stuff like
00:50:50
yeah, rebel taxis are getting there.
00:50:51
But you're
00:50:52
personal use vehicles long ways from being
automated.
00:50:54
It's about the least controlled
environment.
00:50:56
And what you're talking about are these
very specific controlled commercial
00:51:00
environments that you can bring down the
delta of one, something going wrong so
00:51:06
much greater, but two, it's inherently in
an environment where people can at least
00:51:10
expect how to interact with these
autonomous machines.
00:51:15
And the speeds usually are probably- And
so this is happening now.
00:51:19
Yeah.
00:51:20
And also there's a safe, like a safety
case is huge in the autonomy space.
00:51:23
And there's a safe state of just stop.
00:51:26
Right.
00:51:26
Like if you're in a, if you're moving
things around at a, at a trucking, um,
00:51:31
depot and your autonomous yard truck of
some way, like something doesn't go right,
00:51:35
just stop, stay there.
00:51:36
No, you're fine.
00:51:36
You're not blocking a right away.
00:51:39
Like there's a safe state that is just put
the brakes on.
00:51:42
And so, uh, yeah, your question of yes,
automation is a huge focus in these
00:51:47
controlled environments.
00:51:48
Um,
00:51:49
to try to figure out like how can you
realize and that has its own, its own
00:51:53
challenge of like, it's, it's not as
simple as just buy an autonomous vehicle
00:51:57
and say, Hey, go do your thing.
00:51:58
But the application work has to be very
intentional and strategic to actually
00:52:02
figure out how to incorporate it into your
business to solve a real need and not just
00:52:05
to be able to say, look, I have the shiny
new autonomous vehicle sitting in the
00:52:07
corner that I spent a million dollars on
or whatever.
00:52:10
Totally.
00:52:10
And with that, I mean, um, you mentioned
ag earlier and that's an industry that's
00:52:15
going through a lot of autonomy.
00:52:17
And actually has been for quite a while.
00:52:19
Uh, what are you seeing talking about the
million dollar new, fully autonomous robot
00:52:27
thing?
00:52:27
Um, are you seeing the interest kind of
with electrification for these
00:52:31
opportunities, like, well, how do I just
take my existing fleet and instead of
00:52:35
having to buy a whole new one, maybe I buy
10 new ones to tread out, but I've got
00:52:39
these other 50 ones.
00:52:40
What can I do to either make them
autonomous, make them electric?
00:52:44
Is that more of the conversation you're
seeing?
00:52:47
Or is that more like, that's what they
wish for.
00:52:49
But once you start looking into the
practicality of it, just really isn't an
00:52:52
option.
00:52:56
Yeah, and I'd say ag is maybe of the
industries I mentioned, one of the ones
00:52:59
I'm least familiar with and in the weeds,
but I think I mean, both sides are going
00:53:06
after that.
00:53:07
If mining, for example, though, if you ask
that question, like that's certainly the
00:53:11
equation.
00:53:11
And there's a few cool companies that are
doing retrofit work for big haul trucks
00:53:17
and things like that.
00:53:18
I think certainly for autonomy, but I
think decarbonization efforts as well,
00:53:22
because that's the same category of those
vehicles are built for.
00:53:25
decades, not years, right?
00:53:28
Is that I'm kind of curious when you talk
about decarbonization, because I think a
00:53:33
lot of that, depending on who you talk to,
for sure, some of that's obviously
00:53:38
politically driven in their opinions, but
so many large companies just have
00:53:42
decarbonization mandates is are you seeing
that it's driven by obviously, maybe in
00:53:49
Europe and some of these other countries,
there are actual governmental
00:53:53
numbers they need to hit that are driving
this.
00:53:56
Are you seeing it from your customers be
more around numbers they need to hit or is
00:54:00
it sometimes around their own goals that
they've set as a company like, yeah, we
00:54:04
wanna be carbon neutral or carbon free by
2050, 2035.
00:54:08
And so we've looked at these things going
on in our space that we have to hit this,
00:54:14
this and this, or it's like, well, with
this new law passed, or is it kind of a
00:54:19
mix of both for what these companies are
trying to accomplish?
00:54:23
It's, it's, it's a mix.
00:54:25
I mean, it's also, it's, it's hard to get
to true motivations, um, and, and really
00:54:32
get to the, to the heart of that.
00:54:34
But I mean, there's all ultimately,
there's typically some type of
00:54:39
self-interest.
00:54:40
Maybe for some people, they're just so
committed that future generations need.
00:54:45
Decarbonization to, and like that, that
drives their whole business strategy.
00:54:48
I think there are people like that.
00:54:50
I think that's the exception though.
00:54:52
I think more of it is like.
00:54:53
the market's going this way or we're going
to be forced this way because of
00:54:57
regulations and some external force seems
to be the primary driver in most
00:55:03
situations.
00:55:05
No, that that's kind of what I figured
would be the experience with that because
00:55:10
it it's also like I was saying, obviously
very regional.
00:55:13
What is being driven by like Europe or
even some of the Asian countries by
00:55:17
legislation versus here is like, yeah,
that's probably going to go that way, but
00:55:20
we're also getting shareholder interest
and pushing for it.
00:55:23
with I guess a little bit of a segue with
what your company does around
00:55:29
electrification and manufacturing.
00:55:31
What is, we've talked about autonomy,
we've talked about electrification.
00:55:34
What are some of the maybe things or
technologies that people that just don't
00:55:40
have much exposure to what Edison does in
your level of manufacturing?
00:55:45
What are some of the disruptors or maybe
even approaches to?
00:55:52
electric manufacturing especially, but
just manufacturing you're seeing.
00:55:55
I think probably maybe the more common
ones people are familiar with are like
00:55:58
agile style of building, especially like
in software.
00:56:05
But I just be curious if there's any other
kind of things that you're seeing, whether
00:56:08
it's from an internal or just an external
technology that's kind of having a large
00:56:12
influence on this manufacturing that you
and your company do.
00:56:17
Yeah.
00:56:17
So I highlight two things and that's
quality and supply chain.
00:56:21
So your approach to quality needs to be
robust and specific to the needs of the
00:56:30
product.
00:56:30
Right.
00:56:30
And so there's within the automotive
world, if you, if anyone's familiar with
00:56:33
that, there's something called APQP or the
advanced product quality planning.
00:56:37
And that's if you have, if any component
in your car has gone through some type of
00:56:44
APQP process that is qualified, then you
have a PPAP process that at the end, it
00:56:50
says if we
00:56:51
rules and instructions, then this comes
out and it's a good quality part.
00:56:56
In the lower volume electrification space,
you need to pick and choose from that
00:57:01
process, but also honor the spirit of that
process.
00:57:05
So maybe adding a little bit more to this.
00:57:07
So like there's an idea called failure
modes and effects analysis, both at a
00:57:11
design and a process level.
00:57:12
So when we get a new product, we'll look
at it and we'll say, what are all the ways
00:57:16
in which this thing can break?
00:57:18
What are all the ways that we can?
00:57:19
What are all the way that this design
could be faulty?
00:57:22
What are all the ways that during the
assembly process something could go wrong
00:57:25
that would lead to a faulty end product?
00:57:28
And then you think about, okay, what is
the risk level?
00:57:31
How likely is this to happen?
00:57:33
How big of an issue is it if it happens?
00:57:35
And how do we mitigate this?
00:57:36
So you then put together a control plan to
figure out, we follow these steps and if
00:57:40
we do this correctly, then we can mitigate
X and Y risk, right?
00:57:45
And...
00:57:47
Then you the way you bake in your
manufacturing system the way you're
00:57:50
informing your operators and applying
different fixtures and things are all
00:57:53
built with that in mind.
00:57:56
And so anyone who's not from the
manufacturing world.
00:57:59
I mean, logically, it makes sense.
00:58:00
Maybe there's parallels to other areas,
but like that process and Approach, I
00:58:06
think, is critical if you're going to
build anything figure out all the ways it
00:58:09
can go wrong.
00:58:10
Rank them and figure out how you can
mitigate the biggest risks, essentially.
00:58:16
on a supply chain perspective similarly,
and we work with both in the electric and
00:58:20
the autonomous vehicle space.
00:58:22
Software type companies is pretty common
that we work with founders who are
00:58:27
software people, who are not necessarily
hardware people.
00:58:30
And one of the key realizations needs to
be like, supply chain can kill you.
00:58:35
Missing a single component that's critical
at the time when you need it to assemble
00:58:39
your product, there's nothing you can do.
00:58:41
You can't.
00:58:42
You can't work at weekends.
00:58:43
You can't work over time.
00:58:45
You can't put more people at it.
00:58:46
You're stuck waiting on this one put
component until it comes.
00:58:50
And so you need to build out a robust
supply chain and with suppliers that you
00:58:56
trust and that can deliver.
00:58:57
And then also a tracking method.
00:59:00
So likely using some type of ERP system
and doing very careful material planning
00:59:07
and ordering and logistics and inventory
management because it's
00:59:12
so important that before a build you have
a list of what are all of the things I
00:59:16
need and how long is it going to take me
to build to get them.
00:59:19
You order everything when they get in your
building you know exactly where they are
00:59:23
both in the digital and the physical world
so you can point to something be like hey
00:59:27
that you know that bus bar that I need
where is it can't just be somewhere in the
00:59:32
shop no it needs to be it's on rack X on
shelf two and location why right.
00:59:40
I don't know if that stuff sounds obvious
or if it sounds like overkill, but like
00:59:43
that is the way to do this well and to not
run into unintended supply chain issues
00:59:49
that are going to cost you a ton.
00:59:50
Yeah.
00:59:51
And that, that makes a lot of sense.
00:59:53
And I think that is something that just
people don't fully appreciate enough is,
00:59:58
uh, that example is spot on of if you
don't have the part, there is nothing you
01:00:02
can do.
01:00:03
You can't, I mean, you could potentially
spend more money to maybe try and buy from
01:00:07
a backup supplier, but either way you've
lost time.
01:00:10
And more likely you've also now lost money
that just can't be made up.
01:00:15
I'm kind of curious because this is, I
think exposed, most people are exposed to
01:00:19
this in this space, at least are talked
about around electric vehicles or just
01:00:24
vehicles and manufacturing in general.
01:00:26
Is there anything that while you're doing
this work, since you spoke about chargers
01:00:31
that have kind of stood out or that's been
a recurrent issue for charging companies
01:00:37
around those sorts of challenges.
01:00:42
issue for charging companies.
01:00:48
I don't know if there's anything.
01:00:49
I mean, of course, there's been supply
chain uncertainty.
01:00:53
And I mean, it's leveled.
01:00:55
But maybe that's the thing I would, I
guess, highlight is not understanding lead
01:01:00
times and the fact that you have to, like
if you have a part, if you want to do a
01:01:05
manufacturing run, you need to backtrack.
01:01:08
Assume material is all on hand one, two
weeks beforehand.
01:01:12
Backtrack from that and figure out what is
your longest lead time item, what
01:01:15
uncertainty is there in that lead time.
01:01:17
and give yourself a safety factor.
01:01:19
So it can be right that you need to design
freeze several months before your build
01:01:24
starts, which again, from manufacturing
world, someone's probably laughing, be
01:01:28
like, of course, but if you're not from
that world, then you might think that,
01:01:32
hey, we're gonna design something that's
gonna be designed January 31st, we'll
01:01:35
build our first units February 15th, and
we'll move forward.
01:01:37
That's not gonna happen.
01:01:39
Well, and coming from having done a lot of
work in the software space, exactly.
01:01:42
It's like, oh, we can't just change this.
01:01:45
Although just be a
01:01:47
extra dev weekend and boom, we'll get this
all solved out or that'll be the next
01:01:51
version we ship.
01:01:53
But yeah, I was curious about that.
01:01:55
I figured that might be the reality of it.
01:01:58
I know one of the areas, and this really
isn't so much on the charging companies,
01:02:02
is the supply chain issues around
transformers and some of the stuff that
01:02:07
the utility actually needs to get the
power to where these chargers are going
01:02:10
and especially for DC fast charging has
been a big reason a lot of larger
01:02:17
DC, uh, fast charging locations have
either taken longer or have just been put
01:02:22
on hold indefinitely is just because
there's been a shortage in general of
01:02:26
transformers or other just supply chain
issues.
01:02:29
But, uh, I, I appreciate you sharing that
with us.
01:02:33
I think I realized we're kind of coming up
on our time and we're just a little over
01:02:36
an hour now, but one, one question I guess
I have for you, I ask all of our guests
01:02:40
are just in your experience and what your
company is doing.
01:02:43
Are there.
01:02:44
any innovative ways that you think either
industry or even government can maybe help
01:02:49
accelerate the rollout of electric
vehicles or even charging technology.
01:02:59
Hmm.
01:03:05
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of
things in work.
01:03:09
Um, I'm curious to see, right.
01:03:13
This isn't an area of expertise here, but,
um, how intentionally can all the fund
01:03:18
federal funding that's been put inside,
put aside actually be put into practice
01:03:23
and go and make the impact that it's been,
uh, meant to make.
01:03:26
So like for example, right.
01:03:28
You might think we're doing a lot of work
in the electric vehicle spaces.
01:03:31
Should be easy to go find some type of
federal funding to go and
01:03:35
do work with like it, it hasn't, but we
haven't gotten the scent of whatever, um,
01:03:40
IRA or whatever money and, uh, just the,
the process of going and pursuing that is
01:03:46
made it so it's not even worth it.
01:03:47
Um, so yeah, that's, that's an
interesting, of course it'd be nice if
01:03:50
that's for sure.
01:03:51
That's an interesting thing that I kind of
learned this year.
01:03:55
Earlier on our podcast, we had Lauren
McDonald of the consulting and kind of
01:03:59
just charging guru of EV adoption.
01:04:02
And he was talking about
01:04:03
how Nevi funds, which are specifically for
getting charger infrastructure on like the
01:04:08
state level, had kind of unintentionally
been slowed down because all these larger
01:04:13
charging companies now were, instead of
putting more sites on the ground, they
01:04:17
were waiting and trying to get federal
funds to then use them to do these
01:04:21
installations.
01:04:22
And so unintentionally, at least kind of
in the short to medium term, it was
01:04:25
actually slowing down a lot of the
momentum and the traction of the projects
01:04:29
that we were seeing, at least for the
charging side.
01:04:32
And I think according to just a recent
podcast, when he was on our panel, he said
01:04:36
that had changed a little bit, but that
was for sure something that was surprising
01:04:39
to me.
01:04:39
And I think it's something we've also just
seen in this space a lot is a lot of money
01:04:44
put out a lot of money that either goes to
studies or other things.
01:04:47
And then by the time, which usually a lot
has passed that we see the funds put into
01:04:54
a physical execution that actual taxpayers
and consumers can use.
01:04:59
It's okay.
01:05:02
but there's been a lot of whatever X
million dollars that was set aside.
01:05:06
So unfortunately that's not a one-to-one
direct output of what we want to see to
01:05:13
make that impact to improve the
experience.
01:05:16
But I really appreciate you being on and
kind of sharing these thoughts with us,
01:05:19
Brandon.
01:05:20
And for any of those who are either
interested in learning more about the
01:05:25
Edison Manufacturing Engineering or the
Future Mobility Podcast, what's the best
01:05:29
way for people to...
01:05:31
listen or kind of inquire about your
services.
01:05:36
Yeah, so Future Mobility Podcast comes out
weekly every Sunday.
01:05:39
Um, find out any podcast, uh, platform.
01:05:43
If so, yeah, check, check it out there.
01:05:45
If you want to reach out, if you're
building anything, or if you know someone
01:05:47
who's building something, launching
dozens, hundreds, thousands of units per
01:05:51
year, some type of complex assembly and
they need some way to build it, reach out
01:05:55
to me, that's, that's where we specialize.
01:05:57
Uh, my email's first.lastname at Edison
dash M F G.com.
01:06:01
So Brandon.Spartnik at.
01:06:04
edison-mfg.com.
01:06:06
Shoot me a note and let's chat.
01:06:07
Yeah, thank you so much, Brandon.
01:06:09
And we have to have you on again soon.
01:06:11
It's been too long.
01:06:12
And with that, we'll let you get going.
01:06:14
Thank you.
01:06:17
Thank you for listening to our
conversation today and a special thank you
01:06:21
to Brandon for sharing his insights and
expertise in the challenges and
01:06:25
opportunities in electric, autonomous and
EV charging manufacturing.
01:06:30
Also, definitely check out Brandon's
podcast, the future of mobility.
01:06:34
I know it's a podcast a lot of our
listeners would enjoy as well.
01:06:38
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01:07:02
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