David Welch

00:00:05

Good morning Grid Connections listeners.




00:00:07

And for those of you who may be listening
for the first time, the Grid Connections




00:00:11

podcast is the show where we unravel the
complexities of electric transportation,




00:00:15

renewable energy, and our electrical power
grid that ties all of this together.




00:00:20

I'm your host Chase.




00:00:20

And today we're joined by David Welch, a
Bloomberg Bureau Chief based in Detroit.




00:00:26

David shares his knowledge of the
automotive market and perceptions of the




00:00:29

market being based in the Motor City.




00:00:32

Especially around electric vehicles, a
topic he's extensively covered and is




00:00:36

passionate about.




00:00:37

Our conversation with David takes us on a
journey through the automotive industry's




00:00:41

transformative shift towards
electrification and autonomy.




00:00:44

We delve into the heart of General Motors
guided by David's book, Charging Ahead,




00:00:50

which is waiting for you in the show
notes.




00:00:52

Should you want to learn more and get a
copy yourself.




00:00:55

Make sure to check it out.




00:00:56

The book highlights CEO Mary Barra's
leadership in steering the 120 year old




00:01:01

company into a new era.




00:01:03

This episode on packs the challenges GM
faces from industry, along with even




00:01:07

serious corporate change to dealings with
the UAW and how they're navigating the




00:01:12

roadmap they've set out for
electrification.




00:01:15

But before we dive in a little
housekeeping, if you find today's




00:01:18

discussion enlightening, please share this
episode with someone who will appreciate




00:01:22

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00:01:23

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00:01:47

Now buckle up as we explore the
electrifying road ahead with David Welch.




00:01:51

Tune in to discover the innovations,
challenges, and milestones defining the




00:01:55

automotive industry's race towards a
greener, more autonomous future.




00:01:58

With that,




00:02:00

I'm joined today by David Welch.




00:02:02

He's the Bureau Chief of Detroit for
Bloomberg.




00:02:04

Thanks for joining us today, David.




00:02:06

I think we're going to be covering a lot
of really interesting subjects.




00:02:08

And I know you've recently come out with a
book kind of talking about GM and some of




00:02:12

the challenges




00:02:13

but real briefly for anyone that might not
be familiar with you can you share a




00:02:17

little bit of your background and what
you've been kind of doing in the space




00:02:21

around automotive and how you got into it.




00:02:24

Yeah, so covering the auto beat on and off
for more years than I care to recount, but




00:02:31

20 something years for Bloomberg and
before that Business Week, which was




00:02:35

acquired by Bloomberg, it was the Detroit
Bureau Chief there too, actually started




00:02:40

covering the auto beat in Texas, covering
the plants down there.




00:02:45

And this was late 90s.




00:02:46

So he had like AutoNation and CarMax that
used CarMega stories before they all




00:02:51

morphed into something else.




00:02:54

So I covered the retail side of it as well
and taking some breaks, going to New York,




00:02:59

covered Wall Street for a bit.




00:03:00

And, you know, back in Detroit as Bureau
Chief covering the auto industry.




00:03:04

And yeah, the book Charging Ahead about
Mary Barra's effort to try to transform GM




00:03:09

into an electric vehicle maker.




00:03:11

And, it was tough.




00:03:13

It was tough sledding when I wrote the
book.




00:03:15

book a year ago and it's even tougher now
and some of it was sort of pre-saged and




00:03:19

we can get into that whenever you want to
talk about it.




00:03:21

But that's what the book's about.




00:03:23

It's not saying GM's the EV hero, it's
sort of Mary Barra as this character




00:03:28

trying to fix the company, change the
company.




00:03:31

And it's really tough to do that with an
automaker that's 100 years old.




00:03:37

No doubt.




00:03:38

I think that's a topic we've discussed
quite a bit here.




00:03:40

And I know a few episodes back we had John
McElroy on, and that was definitely a




00:03:45

subject that we touched on was the
challenges that GM and others kind of the




00:03:49

big three have definitely dealt with that,
with that disruption in the industry.




00:03:53

I think let's start off as someone who has
been in journalism, specifically on the




00:03:59

focus with automotive for so long.




00:04:01

I think there's a lot of people who listen
that who have been following and in the




00:04:05

electric vehicle space, especially,




00:04:07

have been kind of maybe disappointed, it's
not the right word, but it has been




00:04:12

interesting to see kind of gaps in
coverage of electric vehicles,




00:04:16

specifically around like the knowledge
base of them.




00:04:19

And recently we had kind of John Volcker
and we've had, as I mentioned also, John




00:04:23

McRoy on, and one of those topics we've
really discussed is obviously the




00:04:27

education at the dealership part.




00:04:29

But I do think another part is around the
actual journalism and coverage of the




00:04:33

automotive space right now.




00:04:35

What do you think are maybe some of the
gaps that you've seen, at least around the




00:04:39

knowledge base of electric vehicles, or
are there other areas that you think that




00:04:43

kind of need to be improved to kind of
help make it a lot easier for the average




00:04:47

person to understand and get into the
electric vehicle experience?




00:04:52

Yeah, I think in some ways there's this
idea out there that EVs are really tough




00:04:58

to own.




00:04:59

And it is different.




00:05:01

There are a lot of things EV owners need
to learn, particularly with charging.




00:05:05

The charging network isn't great, but I
think people dismiss the charging network




00:05:08

as practically non-existent.




00:05:10

The fact of the matter is, it does exist.




00:05:12

It's just, it's not on every street corner
like filling stations are.




00:05:15

You live with EVs differently.




00:05:17

And I've seen some really good stories
done on that.




00:05:19

It's just not the prevailing narrative for
electric vehicles that you can live with




00:05:23

them.




00:05:24

And you can live with them pretty easily.




00:05:27

It's just you're going to have to change
habits to do that.




00:05:31

And that's sort of a consumer journalism
bit that I think could be told better.




00:05:38

And the other part of it, and I've pushed
pretty hard internally at Bloomberg to




00:05:45

make sure our coverage reflects this, EV
sales aren't in retreat.




00:05:50

Sales growth is declining.




00:05:53

And that's an important distinction
because...




00:05:56

Before EVs came around, it was, well, the
auto industry sells 110 million, roughly,




00:06:01

vehicles a year globally.




00:06:03

And that's why they're not very good
stocks on Wall Street, because there's no




00:06:07

growth there, right?




00:06:08

It's not like AI or something that's new,
and there's going to be a bunch of revenue




00:06:12

growth unless you steal it from somebody
else.




00:06:14

And that's still true, but with EVs, EV
sales are growing rapidly globally.




00:06:20

And it has slowed down for a variety of
reasons that we'll talk about.




00:06:24

But...




00:06:25

It's not in retreat.




00:06:26

It's not like suddenly nobody wants them.




00:06:28

I think sometimes media coverage as a
whole can get bipolar on something.




00:06:33

You know, everything's great until we
decide it's not, and then we hate it.




00:06:36

Um, this is, you know, there's some nuance
here and the nuance is it's, you know,




00:06:43

it's still growing.




00:06:43

It's just, we're, we're hitting this flat
part of a classic technology S curve.




00:06:49

I think so.




00:06:50

And you do see that reported.




00:06:52

It's.




00:06:54

It's just, it sort of gotten this
narrative kind of took on a life of its




00:06:57

own that nobody wants an electric vehicle
anymore.




00:07:00

For sure.




00:07:01

And I think you're totally right.




00:07:03

I do.




00:07:04

Unfortunately see why it's probably taken
off more.




00:07:07

Just it is kind of chasing clicks and the
narrative sounds more interesting and gets




00:07:13

people to kind of tune into it.




00:07:15

But I agree with you there.




00:07:16

There's a challenge I think just with the
automotive industry in general, with




00:07:19

interest rates and many other things kind
of going on right now that makes just new




00:07:22

car sales in general harder.




00:07:24

Are there any trends in particular that
you think are the biggest headwinds or




00:07:28

things that you don't think are getting
enough coverage around that?




00:07:31

It's something that I've said this on
Bloomberg TV a couple of times, actually




00:07:36

several times, and that's not shameless
self-promotion, but I think when people




00:07:41

talk about EVs and whether or not
consumers want them, and by consumers we




00:07:45

generally at this point in history mean
people who aren't luxury buyers, who




00:07:50

aren't early adopters for technology.




00:07:52

Do they want them or not?




00:07:55

EVs get a lot of consideration.




00:07:56

I think they've captured the imagination
of a lot of people.




00:08:00

The challenge now, and this is the
subtlety I don't think always gets picked




00:08:03

up, is first of all people are happy with
their gasoline powered cars.




00:08:08

It's not like they're walking around
kicking empty cans and grousing about




00:08:15

those vehicles.




00:08:17

So it's the industry's job to dislodge
them from that.




00:08:22

But how do you do that?




00:08:24

Well, if you really think about it,
there's not a lot of variety out there.




00:08:27

compared to gasoline vehicles.




00:08:29

In the US market, there's one vehicle, now
that the Chevy Bolt has discontinued




00:08:34

temporarily, that's less than $40.




00:08:37

That's a Nissan Leaf.




00:08:39

And a Nissan Leaf is a compact hatchback.




00:08:42

Americans hate compact hatchbacks.




00:08:45

They've never bought them in big numbers.




00:08:47

And it gets about, I think, 210 miles of
range might be the max on it.




00:08:51

So, you know, that's not a great
proposition.




00:08:56

for people, for most American consumers,
but it's the only vehicle under 40




00:09:01

right now.




00:09:01

Now that's not counting tax credits.




00:09:04

I think you can get a Model 3 now, certain
configurations with the tax credits under




00:09:09

that, but they're still pretty expensive
is the point.




00:09:11

And there isn't nearly the variety that
you have with gasoline-powered vehicles




00:09:17

where you can get anything from a compact
on up to a Hummer.




00:09:21

You can get a Hummer electric actually,
but.




00:09:23

Right, right.




00:09:25

There's just more variety, more variety,
under $40.




00:09:29

So, I remember having, here's my analogy,
conversations back in the early 2000s when




00:09:37

Nissan and Toyota came out with full-size
pickup trucks.




00:09:41

I was writing for Business Week.




00:09:43

My editor said, well, here it is.




00:09:44

This is the end of Detroit because now the
Japanese are taking their last stronghold.




00:09:49

And they said, they took...




00:09:52

the sedan and compact market away from the
big three, why wouldn't they also take




00:09:56

pickups?




00:09:56

And I said, you know, because of a variety
of reasons, the quality of those family




00:10:03

sedans and compacts made by the Detroit
companies were truly terrible.




00:10:07

And those consumers were really angry and
they were happy to leave.




00:10:10

They actually left with two middle fingers
in the air for the most part.




00:10:14

But the people who bought pickup trucks,
those trucks were made pretty well and




00:10:20

those people loved them.




00:10:22

It's not going to be that easy for the
Japanese to just steal those buyers.




00:10:25

So what does that mean for the EV market?




00:10:28

You have pretty happy buyers.




00:10:30

I think when people drive EVs, they
realize they're faster, smoother, quieter,




00:10:33

and there's a lot about them that's really
cool.




00:10:35

But that's the industry's job is to tell
them why they should leave their regular




00:10:41

cars right now.




00:10:42

And, but they are happy with them.




00:10:44

So for the same reason, you know, that...




00:10:48

then Dodge, now Ram, Chevy, and Ford
didn't lose the pickup market.




00:10:52

The gasoline-powered vehicle market's not
going to just surrender itself so easily.




00:10:56

Consumers, they like what they like.




00:10:59

I think a lot of people will come around.




00:11:01

It's going to take longer than the
industry thought.




00:11:04

And I'm kind of curious since you are
based in Detroit, are there, what do you




00:11:09

think is kind of the perspective and what
you hear being kind of in the hub of




00:11:13

Detroit versus maybe the more common
narrative or maybe misperceptions people




00:11:17

have about how electric vehicles are doing
or that transition to them across the




00:11:22

country.




00:11:24

Yeah, you're hearing more skepticism from
inside the companies.




00:11:27

And honestly, that was kind of always
there.




00:11:29

There were a lot of engineers and people
working in the companies who would see




00:11:34

these big plans from Ford and GM, big
investments and wonder, okay, is this




00:11:40

really that smart, is that market going to
be there?




00:11:43

And.




00:11:45

You're hearing more of it now because
you've seen investment reigned in, you've




00:11:48

seen vehicle plans delayed, and you've
seen sales, not just from these companies,




00:11:52

but from others disappointed.




00:11:54

You see Tesla discounting massively over
the past year.




00:11:57

So, you know, there is, there was already
some skepticism.




00:12:03

Because people don't necessarily love
change, especially within their companies.




00:12:09

Right.




00:12:09

And so you,




00:12:12

You have Mary Bar or Jim Farley coming in
saying, we're going to invest all this




00:12:16

money.




00:12:16

And in Ford's case, we're going to split
the company in two.




00:12:19

And the people in the new co are the cool
kids and the people in the old co are in




00:12:23

this, you know, maybe a dinosaur of a
company.




00:12:27

And it turns out that, you know, the
dinosaur is going to live longer and new




00:12:31

co doesn't, you know, is getting defunded
in some ways.




00:12:35

And so there's probably an, I told you so
too, happening from people.




00:12:39

It's, you know,




00:12:42

So I think what's happening in the EV
market, the slowdown, and also the




00:12:45

slowdown in investment, which by the way
drives a lot of the narrative we were




00:12:48

talking about earlier, that has some
skeptics saying, I told you so.




00:12:54

You know, it's kind of funny you mentioned
the Ford blue and Ford, uh, model E




00:12:58

program because that got so much attention
when it was first kind of announced and




00:13:03

obviously when the market and kind of the
Evie, uh, momentum was much higher.




00:13:09

And now it seems like we don't really hear
too much about the delineation of those




00:13:14

programs unless it's maybe some sort of
like quarterly report or kind of a smaller




00:13:19

news story related to it.




00:13:21

Do you think that




00:13:23

Or I guess one, I'd be curious if you've
been hearing any more of, uh, from kind of




00:13:27

the inside of people that have seen that
firsthand and how that actual, uh,




00:13:31

execution of that business model has gone.




00:13:34

And do you think it's more kind of taken a
backseat just for the financials or do you




00:13:40

have any sense of how that, how successful
that program has been to kind of delineate




00:13:44

into two countries, uh, two companies at
Ford.




00:13:47

Um, I'm not sure.




00:13:49

I, you know, I was, when they did it,
there was a lot of pressure on GM to do




00:13:54

the same thing and GM had said basically
that they had kind of already done it.




00:13:59

It just, it wasn't as aggressive.




00:14:02

They, they, because it's still reported to
the same top executives.




00:14:07

Um,




00:14:07

And actually, you mentioned John McElroy
earlier, John and I had this debate at one




00:14:11

point.




00:14:11

Like John thinks that any company, or at
the time he did, I don't know what he




00:14:14

thinks now because a lot of these things
are going in reverse.




00:14:18

He said, any company that has, doesn't
have its own separate EV company run by




00:14:21

somebody from Silicon Valley, like they're
going to die.




00:14:23

And I said, wait a second, you're talking
about word charts here.




00:14:27

You know, like at the end of the day, Jim
Farley runs Ford.




00:14:32

And he makes the decisions for the Blue
Oval side of the company and the EV side




00:14:37

of the company.




00:14:38

And that's that.




00:14:39

And there are people working on just EVs
at General Motors and Stellantis.




00:14:47

At the end of the day, they report to the
same CEO.




00:14:50

And I can guarantee you when...




00:14:54

Ford decided to reduce investment by 12
billion.




00:14:57

That wasn't decided by one person on the
EV side of the company.




00:15:00

It was Farley, it was the board of
directors, just the same way it would be




00:15:03

if they never split the company like that.




00:15:06

And when Mary Bar decided to delay the
Orient Township pickup truck plant, that




00:15:12

wasn't decided by...




00:15:14

the executive who runs the EV truck group
that builds vehicles in Hamtramck that was




00:15:20

decided by her leadership team and the
board.




00:15:25

Does it help them getting people to
develop technologies?




00:15:31

Short answer is I don't know.




00:15:32

I've always wondered about it because
there's a lot about both vehicles you




00:15:37

still need like basic guts of the car, the
interior, the design, the chassis, all




00:15:42

that kind of stuff.




00:15:44

where you're having the same people
engineered, you still have to work with




00:15:46

them.




00:15:47

So you know, one of the things
historically that got General Motors into




00:15:55

trouble was they used to have all these,
all the vehicle divisions had their own




00:15:59

engineering groups.




00:16:00

This goes back many decades.




00:16:03

And for efficiency's sake, they put it all
together.




00:16:06

And a long retired GM executive told me
that actually caused a lot of problems




00:16:11

internally because, you know, it used to
be, you know, you're, you're a power train




00:16:17

engineer and the transmission guy for
Buick sat next to you or worked on your




00:16:22

floor.




00:16:23

And if there was an issue, you'd go over
there and talk to him.




00:16:26

And then once they reorganized everything,
you know, the, the expertise went hither




00:16:30

and yon and it really caused a lot of
problems.




00:16:33

I'm not saying that's that happened at
Ford, but.




00:16:35

Right.




00:16:37

know, it's just, you know, these things
can work or they can not work.




00:16:40

And, you know, I never saw that as a
deciding factor.




00:16:44

I mean, the bottom line is like these
companies have to figure out how to make




00:16:47

batteries and the software that makes all
this stuff work and get the vehicles




00:16:53

produced.




00:16:55

Well, and that is what's kind of
interesting.




00:16:56

I mean, in that example, especially, I
mean, that has been one, one of the things




00:17:00

that the startups and even some of the
Chinese companies, when asked about how




00:17:04

they run their business or what has kind
of led to the flatness of their




00:17:09

organization and their speed is actually
kind of that old model where they will




00:17:12

have the engineers and the designers and
all of them close to where the cars are




00:17:17

actually being manufactured.




00:17:19

So it's, it is kind of interesting to see
that is that traditionally was.




00:17:24

And it seems to still be a very cost
effective and, uh, time efficient way to




00:17:29

move vehicles forward.




00:17:30

And I, I'm kind of curious with, has there
been talk of trying to move back to that




00:17:37

style of manufacturing more with some of
these companies?




00:17:40

I know there have been talk.




00:17:41

They were going to do that with, uh,
speaking of the Ford, uh, model E and blue




00:17:46

programs.




00:17:46

But I'm, I'm just kind of curious if that
actually ever materialized or you've seen




00:17:50

that even with GM or it's more just from a




00:17:52

in house basically.




00:17:54

Uh, bring more stuff in house and just
also bringing, um, I mean, I can think of




00:17:59

a couple of examples for Ford that they've
kind of looked at, like, I mean, the Ford




00:18:02

GT and some of these where they, they take
a very small, dedicated, uh, group of




00:18:06

people and just throw them at the problem
and let them handle it versus kind of some




00:18:10

of the larger teams that we've
traditionally seen from like the big three




00:18:14

for the last couple of decades, are you
seeing any or hearing much about that




00:18:18

across?




00:18:19

being in Detroit from like the traditional
automakers about going more to these




00:18:23

smaller kind of focus teams and almost
more like a software style of product




00:18:29

management.




00:18:30

You know, they definitely did with, like,
take the Electric Hummer.




00:18:33

Um, they, they did that program in, I
remember writing about this.




00:18:37

It was like, you know, typically these
programs were like four years and they did




00:18:41

it in like 23 or 27 months, something like
that.




00:18:44

It actually might have been 27.




00:18:45

It was a little more than two years.




00:18:46

And they had a very small team and they
used to meet, you know, all together in,




00:18:50

in like one.




00:18:52

one building in GM instead of like, you
know, different departments all over the




00:18:55

company.




00:18:57

And the guy ran it was guy named Josh
Tavill, who's sort of co-head of product




00:19:01

development at GM now.




00:19:03

And he, I did a story on this.




00:19:03

He, he borrowed from Amazon though, like
the, I think it was the one, it was the,




00:19:08

the pizza rule where if you had a meeting,
you know, you should never have more




00:19:12

people, like one pizza should feed
everybody in the meeting.




00:19:15

Otherwise you've got a bunch of people who
probably don't need to be there.




00:19:18

And then he had time limits on meetings.




00:19:20

Like this is how long we're going to spend
meeting to like get decisions made.




00:19:24

But it was a very small group and that's
how they got that vehicle done quickly.




00:19:28

Now they've had problems with it.




00:19:29

I don't know if it's related.




00:19:30

I don't think it's related to the size of
the management teams.




00:19:32

I think it's just switching from making
vehicles with engines and transmissions to




00:19:38

EVs pretty hard.




00:19:39

The whole industry is having a tough time
with this.




00:19:41

Well, and that is something I do kind of
want to talk to you about because for the




00:19:44

longest time, I felt like the traditional
big three is like, oh, Tesla is doing




00:19:48

their little thing.




00:19:48

These startups are doing their little
thing.




00:19:50

When we want to make electric vehicles,
we're going to be able to make electric




00:19:53

vehicles, we made cars for decades.




00:19:55

And a lot of people were saying that.




00:19:58

Probably, but it is a different beast
altogether.




00:20:02

And now we are kind of seeing whether
that's through, uh, I think for more, for




00:20:06

forward, they've actually been pretty
effective, but it's been the cost




00:20:09

challenges.




00:20:10

Trying to get those and supply chain But
then you look at GM and it does seem to be




00:20:15

that there have been some pretty big
issues just across the spectrum of




00:20:20

Electric vehicle development and actually
the manufacturing What do you think?




00:20:26

I?




00:20:26

Mean, I think this could be its own
podcast episode alone.




00:20:29

But what do you think have been kind of
the big takeaways from this?




00:20:33

Experience or I don't know if hubris is
the right word but kind of the experience




00:20:38

that




00:20:39

Maybe making electric vehicles wasn't as
easy as they thought it would be and how




00:20:43

that might be affecting their
decision-making




00:20:46

I think it's true across the board.




00:20:48

So, you know, take GM, they've had this
issue assembling battery packs, right?




00:20:52

The Ultium pack, the Ultium pack, by the
way, it was never like that.




00:20:55

There's no secret sauce in terms of
battery chemistry or form factor or




00:20:58

anything like that.




00:20:59

What Ultium is, is it's an industrial
strategy.




00:21:02

It's, you know, you're taking your cells
and you're putting X number of them into a




00:21:07

box that's a module and X number of
modules into a pack.




00:21:10

and the number of modules that go into
that pack, that's your Lego set.




00:21:13

So you can make everything from a Chevy
Bolt on up to a Hummer, right?




00:21:18

Or a Cadillac Escalade.




00:21:19

And it's basically the same basis of the
vehicle, the same platform.




00:21:24

And, so it's almost a manufacturing
strategy.




00:21:32

And that's the part where they've fallen
down, right?




00:21:34

Like the Ultium cells plant is doing fine.




00:21:36

It's getting those, the battery packs
made.




00:21:39

And then they've shown some progress
there, but then they've had all these




00:21:43

software issues that have grounded the
Chevy Blazer EV.




00:21:48

They're not alone, right?




00:21:49

Like Toyota had wheels falling off of the
BZ4X.




00:21:51

And that's saying something like
Volkswagen's or Volkswagen.




00:21:55

Toyota is one of the best, if not the best
manufacturer in the industry.




00:22:00

And they're having those issues.




00:22:02

The Germans Volkswagen and I think
Porsche.




00:22:06

They both had issues with software, kind
of like GM is.




00:22:09

I think maybe different software problems,
but software problems nonetheless.




00:22:14

So.




00:22:14

Well, and I think it's kind of interesting
to mention that now, uh, with kind of the




00:22:18

ability of hindsight, it almost seems like
the Germans knew, especially the VW group,




00:22:22

they knew they had problems.




00:22:23

So they just delayed all their vehicles.




00:22:26

Whereas it seems like GM continue to just
move forward with these.




00:22:28

And now that they're out or supposed to be
out, they're really realizing how many of




00:22:32

these software issues they have.




00:22:34

But I, I'm sorry, what were you going to
say there?




00:22:36

Well, you know, they're I think in the
case of GM and maybe a lot of these




00:22:42

companies and Ford too, right?




00:22:44

Like they just recently stopped F-150
production because of quality issues.




00:22:48

They all they were so far behind Tesla and
they were in the Chinese for that matter.




00:22:52

And they were in such a rush to catch up.




00:22:54

And they had to be that they probably will
definitely get off more than they can




00:23:00

chew.




00:23:03

And they might deny that, but they've all
had production quality, software issues,




00:23:07

you name it, and have had to stop
production, ground vehicles for some




00:23:13

period of time because of this.




00:23:16

So yeah, I think the software side of it
was probably underestimated.




00:23:20

They might not have had the right talent
in place to do it.




00:23:23

And same with battery, you know, the US...




00:23:27

battery infrastructure, battery industry.




00:23:29

It's like there really isn't much of one,
right?




00:23:31

We're relying on Korean and Chinese
partners for the technology and the




00:23:34

know-how.




00:23:35

We gave it all away and now we're rapidly
trying to catch up.




00:23:38

And there's a lot of software that goes
into that too, the battery management




00:23:41

system.




00:23:43

And, you know, do we have the expertise
there?




00:23:46

I don't think we do, I think we can get
it.




00:23:47

I mean Silicon Valley is extremely
adaptable and a lot of people great at




00:23:51

writing code and I think that'll come but
Tesla has it, right?




00:23:57

So we can, as a nation, our companies can
get there but it's really competitive to




00:24:03

get the talent and everyone's in a hurry.




00:24:06

In a weird way, the fact that adoption and
EV sales, the growth has slowed down a




00:24:12

bit.




00:24:14

It kind of gives some of the established
old line car companies maybe a bit of a




00:24:19

time out to figure out the industrial and
the software and the technology side of




00:24:24

this before the market really takes off.




00:24:26

Because look, if the growth rates kept
going at the way they were going, these




00:24:31

guys would be in serious trouble because
they wouldn't have the vehicles and they




00:24:34

wouldn't have the production to meet it.




00:24:36

So




00:24:36

sure.




00:24:37

In a way, they should be thankful that
this is slow down, even though it's making




00:24:40

their lives difficult because you know, if
you're You're Mary Bar and Jim Farley and




00:24:46

you've delayed factory plans or you've
reigned in investment for EVs You know now




00:24:51

your decision is do you have to do that
more based on what the market does or if




00:24:55

not Like when do you know hit the
accelerator again?




00:24:58

These are all tough decisions for them.




00:25:00

Now they make more money than you and I do
so I have no sympathy for them They have




00:25:03

to make them.




00:25:04

That's the job, right?




00:25:07

But, you know, that's, it's all going to
be pretty tough on them, but they do have




00:25:12

this, maybe a bit of a market reprieve to
figure it out.




00:25:16

Well, and that's interesting you bring
that up because that's something I've




00:25:18

talked to with a few people about and my
take on it, and I'd be curious if anyone's




00:25:23

kind of shared this is what we're seeing
is yes, the, some of the, I think the




00:25:28

demand for new cars in general is often,
but a lot of it is that focus on electric




00:25:31

vehicles and the domestic three, two and a
half, whatever you want to call them are




00:25:37

looking at moving kind of back to hybrids,
plug in hybrids.




00:25:41

So you're, there is a




00:25:43

But my question, what I'm kind of curious
and would like to hear your thoughts on is




00:25:47

do you think it's a reprieve in the short
term?




00:25:51

Because by going back to what they're kind
of comfortable with and know more about,




00:25:55

to me it just seems like it gives Tesla
and some of the other startups, but




00:25:59

especially the Chinese the ability to kind
of just keep leaning into what they're




00:26:03

doing.




00:26:03

So once that moment or that interest
catches up or we kind of see some kind of




00:26:09

growth return,




00:26:11

they're going to be actually, I think in
an even better position, supply chain




00:26:14

wise, technology wise, scale wise, uh, to
be ready to kind of just kind of turn up




00:26:20

the factories versus being, if you're
making just plug in hybrids and now you're




00:26:25

seeing more of a demand to go to full
electrics or other things that you have to




00:26:29

change a lot more, at least that's my
opinion.




00:26:31

And I'm kind of curious if you've heard
any other kind of people talking about




00:26:35

that locally.




00:26:36

Um, well, it's, so it's not like it's not
either or like, it's not like, with the




00:26:42

exception of Toyota, right?




00:26:43

They're only making a couple of these, but
they do have more coming and they're heavy




00:26:47

on plug-in hybrids.




00:26:48

I'll tell you, like, here's what I know,
at least with the US companies and to a




00:26:53

degree with the European companies.




00:26:55

They really don't want to do plug-in
hybrids in big numbers.




00:26:59

I think they want to do just enough in
some key segments to meet the demand




00:27:03

that's there and to meet...




00:27:05

fuel economy and greenhouse gas
regulations that are going to get tougher.




00:27:09

Because Toyota is great at making those.




00:27:12

The Koreans are pretty good too.




00:27:14

But they are expensive vehicles to make
because you still do have this electric




00:27:18

system on board and you still do have
gasoline and exhaust and all of this stuff




00:27:22

on board.




00:27:23

So it's not a great and long-term business
model.




00:27:28

They're doing it because they feel they
have to.




00:27:31

And so I think...




00:27:35

They're all still going to lean into the
development of their EVs.




00:27:41

Just a little less so, but the less isn't
like emphasis on developing their supply




00:27:47

chains and developing the software talent
they need and the battery operations.




00:27:53

The less is just like how much of it
they're doing all at once.




00:27:57

Now, the distance, so they're still going
to be working on developing all of this




00:28:01

stuff.




00:28:02

They will be, I think they're going to be
developing less volume because they're




00:28:07

selling less volume, right?




00:28:09

None of them do well in China where the
real EV volume is, so they're not going to




00:28:12

get it there.




00:28:13

And Ford does okay in Europe, GM is barely
there, so they're not going to get it




00:28:20

there.




00:28:21

So they're going to have to rely on
volumes in the US market to get it.




00:28:26

You know, GM in China is going to be
interesting because they're struggling




00:28:29

over there.




00:28:30

Yeah.




00:28:31

they do have this partnership with Wuling
and Shanghai Automotive.




00:28:35

SAIC was their long-term partners, but
they make small, really cheap EVs.




00:28:40

The Honglong Mini has been a really big
success for GM.




00:28:44

But that's where GM can get some knowledge
on how to make cheap EVs.




00:28:51

in that market without having to like sell
them under the Buick brand or, or develop




00:28:56

their own operations.




00:28:58

So that, that helps them there.




00:29:00

But, you know, so can they replicate some
of the learnings over there?




00:29:03

Like, I think the biggest risk here is,
and this is what the IRA, you know,




00:29:08

Biden's Inflation Reduction Act is all
about is telling everybody, look, you can




00:29:12

get all these great incentives to build
and for your customers to buy EVs, but you




00:29:17

have to do it here.




00:29:18

And it's because like,




00:29:20

The US industry sort of writ large needs
to develop an EV industry.




00:29:26

And Tesla has, but nobody else has.




00:29:30

And so that's to your point.




00:29:34

I think that that's where they can fall
behind specifically the Chinese because




00:29:38

the volume there is going to keep growing.




00:29:40

And here it's going to fit and starts.




00:29:44

And scale is one of the things in the auto
industry and scale is so important.




00:29:49

Well, this, uh, this can also goes back to
the conversation with John McRoy, where he




00:29:52

was saying, I mean, the only reason Tesla
got successful was it hit like 80 of




00:29:56

the model three, and then it kind of takes
off.




00:29:58

If you don't have those numbers, then
you're just burning money for a long, long




00:30:02

time.




00:30:03

And I think.




00:30:05

Yeah.




00:30:06

Right.




00:30:07

you know, they're making, I mean, Rivian's
making 50, 60 a year last year and




00:30:13

forecast for this year.




00:30:15

Um, and they lose a lot of money and they
burn a lot of cash and Lucid does even




00:30:20

fewer vehicles.




00:30:21

But you know, those business models don't
work.




00:30:24

Uh, those companies, I, you know, they're
probably going to have to raise money and




00:30:29

find investors who are willing to kind of.




00:30:31

towering losses for a long time until they
can get real volume.




00:30:34

Chinese are well past all of that stuff.




00:30:36

Tesla's well past all of that stuff.




00:30:38

Ford and GM still aren't close to that and
they're a lot closer than those startups.




00:30:42

So we kind of have three auto industries
right now.




00:30:44

We've got Tesla, BYD, and these Chinese
companies that have a lot of volume.




00:30:49

Then you've got Ford, GM, and the Germans
and the Japanese who don't have a lot of




00:30:55

volume and stuff to go up that curve.




00:30:57

Then you have these startups that are even
further behind.




00:31:02

and probably will be for a while because
they don't have the distribution and the




00:31:05

sales numbers to get there.




00:31:07

Well, and they have a much worse market
and also much more competition than Tesla




00:31:12

did during its growth phase.




00:31:13

So even same with the Chinese, at least in
their market too.




00:31:17

So it is kind of interesting.




00:31:20

I'm a big fan of the Rivians.




00:31:21

I think they're great looking vehicles.




00:31:22

They're spendy.




00:31:24

But yeah, but I even just saw a chart just
a couple of days ago that kind of blew my




00:31:29

mind that Rivian.




00:31:31

is actually in a worse financial position
than Tesla was kind of going through like




00:31:34

the scale of model three and all this
stuff.




00:31:36

So it was, I'm sure there'll be, I think
of the startups, they're probably in the




00:31:40

best position.




00:31:41

Um, having the Amazon backing of that
money behind it is something if you need




00:31:45

to get more funds, isn't bad, but yeah,
it's, I mean, it's, it is a, uh,




00:31:49

incredibly difficult time, I think for
everyone right now, uh, outside.




00:31:54

up in an era when raising cash was easy,
right?




00:31:58

Easy Wall Street money, their interest
rates were super low.




00:32:01

He could borrow money for next to nothing.




00:32:03

And Elon Musk is just, you know, a lot of
people hate him, but got to give the guy




00:32:08

his due.




00:32:09

He's, you know, great technologist.




00:32:11

He's, and he's great at raising money.




00:32:14

And, and he did it at a time when it was
pretty easy.




00:32:17

Rivian and Lucid don't have that luxury
right now.




00:32:20

Um, and.




00:32:22

And the, and the Chinese kind of did too,
just by being in China, having the




00:32:25

government backing back then for what they
were doing.




00:32:27

So I, I completely agree with you in that
standpoint.




00:32:30

I don't think that's something that gets
enough, um, kind of perspective is like,




00:32:34

even when you overlay the graphs of these
startups and how they're doing compared to




00:32:38

Tesla during its similar phase, it's just
a much different sales market, much




00:32:43

different supply chain, much different
everything.




00:32:46

Um, but let's, uh, we're in agreement on
pretty much all that.




00:32:50

It sounds like so.




00:32:52

Let's kind of finally jump over to your
book and really kind of go through what




00:32:56

you're you've seen and discovered through
GM and the whole process it's gone for.




00:33:02

So I, I haven't been able to finish the
book yet.




00:33:04

I started reading it.




00:33:05

I really enjoyed it.




00:33:06

So it's really interesting, but I would
love to hear kind of, um, for those




00:33:10

listening, what the book is about, what
got you started on it, and then we can




00:33:14

kind of go through some of the topics and
the things you learned.




00:33:17

Sure.




00:33:18

It started with a cover story in
Businessweek, trying to remember, I think




00:33:21

it was 2019 or 20.




00:33:23

This is basically looking at what Mary
Barra had done with, it must have been




00:33:27

2020 because it was after the 2019 strike.




00:33:31

And she had...




00:33:35

She had downsized this global footprint,
right?




00:33:38

Like she closed down Europe, closed down
their operations in Russia, India,




00:33:42

Southeast Asia, all these places GM lost
money.




00:33:45

And the idea was they were spending
billions of dollars on new products there




00:33:48

and losing money anyways.




00:33:50

And they just weren't well positioned in
the market and it would take years to fix




00:33:53

that.




00:33:53

So her huge decision, and this is one of
the biggest retrenchments in corporate




00:33:58

history, not just the US, but worldwide.




00:34:02

She closed down all that stuff and took
all that money.




00:34:06

and plow it into some of it into cruise
and getting into autonomy, but most of it




00:34:11

into developing the ultium battery and all
of these vehicles.




00:34:14

And by doing that, you know, there's an
old saying in baseball, you can't steal




00:34:19

second and keep your foot on first.




00:34:21

So she seeds all of those markets to
Toyota and Volkswagen and some others, but




00:34:25

primarily Toyota and Volkswagen.




00:34:27

Just says, look, you guys can have all of
those low margin sales in India.




00:34:31

And you can have.




00:34:35

you know, the mess that is Russia and you
can have the overheated market that is




00:34:39

Europe and whatever is left in South
Africa and Southeast Asia, fine.




00:34:44

We're going to sell vehicles in Brazil,
China, the US, and we're going to make a




00:34:47

lot of money doing it, and then we're
going to call that money into EVs and




00:34:50

become electric vehicle kings.




00:34:52

Now, and she also restructured the US
business to make it more profitable.




00:34:56

And so what that left us with is the GM of
today, which is a cash machine.




00:35:02

They generate a lot of money.




00:35:04

Um, but you know, on her way there, she
got in big fights with Donald Trump,




00:35:09

right?




00:35:09

There's a couple of chapters that there's
one chapter just about the war with Trump,




00:35:14

but he sort of, you know, she'd be, Mary
Barr became one of Trump's favorite




00:35:17

targets.




00:35:18

Um, you know, she leaned up operations in
the U S which meant a war with the UAW,




00:35:22

uh, which, you know, was really got hot in
2019, but reared its head again, uh, late




00:35:28

last year with another strike.




00:35:30

So, you know, you start bringing out
change and closing certain operations and,




00:35:35

you know, presidents who promise people in
Ohio that their jobs are coming back get




00:35:38

very angry.




00:35:39

And the union gets very angry.




00:35:42

So she had to fight all of them in order
to restructure this company.




00:35:47

And then internally, there was pushback.




00:35:48

You know, a lot of executives and
engineers were questioning.




00:35:51

There's some, you know, inside meetings
with debates on that about how much they




00:35:56

should plow into electric vehicles and...




00:36:00

whether or not they should just do like
one or two token EVs to say we're here.




00:36:04

But her vision was to catch Tesla.




00:36:06

Her vision was to make sure that, you
know, Google via Waymo did not become the




00:36:11

next generation of automaker.




00:36:14

And, and she pushed really hard.




00:36:15

Now the book, I had to finish the book in,
geez, I think May of 21.




00:36:24

June, May, June of 21.




00:36:27

And, um.




00:36:29

I couldn't foresee all that's gone wrong
today.




00:36:31

However, I stand by everything in this
book because the last chapter of the




00:36:36

epilogue basically looks at what was going
on at the time I had to finish this book




00:36:41

was she fired Dan Ammon as head of crews
because things weren't working there.




00:36:44

The Chevy Bolt was on fire and they still
didn't have any of these out there to




00:36:49

challenge Tesla.




00:36:51

And, you know, on Wall Street parliaments,
its GM has execution risk, which is, you




00:36:56

know, that's very fancy banker language
for these guys who might not be able to




00:37:00

get this done.




00:37:02

And so with all these problems they were
having, I asked Mary in the last interview




00:37:07

right before I finished the book, I said,
do you ever feel like this company suffers




00:37:11

from some kind of generational curse?




00:37:13

Because I actually use those words in the
book too, in that last chapter, because




00:37:18

Here at GM is with the Volt, which was
actually a pretty successful product.




00:37:24

It had some oil buyers, sold in pretty
good numbers.




00:37:27

The technology was pretty good.




00:37:28

I mean, 280 miles of range on a small
vehicle that sold for that price, pretty




00:37:33

good.




00:37:35

But then it's on fire.




00:37:36

And she had a bit of a sense of humor
about it.




00:37:39

She said, no, we're not cursed.




00:37:41

And we're not explained that when you run
a big company, there are always issues.




00:37:44

But that did sort of...




00:37:46

You know, pre sage the fact that, you
know, this company has, does have often




00:37:51

have a lot of these problems.




00:37:52

They, they, they just kind of, you know,
they, they seem to open doors and have




00:37:58

doorways collapse on their head at times.




00:38:00

And, and that's kind of what's happened
with EVs.




00:38:04

You know, look, she had, she freed up
money from lousy operations to put it into




00:38:09

electric vehicles.




00:38:10

And she had this platform that was going
to give her something, you know,




00:38:14

categories that represented 70-75% of the
US market volume, right, all smart, and




00:38:21

get there before Tesla did, except that
they, you know, they haven't been able to




00:38:24

execute.




00:38:24

They haven't been able to get the cars out
the door for the reasons we were talking




00:38:27

about earlier.




00:38:29

And it's not, I don't think it's anything
particular to GM's ability or inability to




00:38:34

do it compared to the other legacy car
companies.




00:38:36

I think they push so hard with so many
vehicles all at once.




00:38:41

And I do think they underestimated how
tough it was going to be to make electric




00:38:45

vehicles.




00:38:46

Because they had done the EV1 before.




00:38:47

They did the Volt.




00:38:48

They did the Volt.




00:38:49

This should be pretty easy.




00:38:50

They've been making cars for 100 years.




00:38:52

Why is it so hard?




00:38:53

But it has been.




00:38:54

And I think part of it is they were doing
a lot all at once.




00:38:57

And part of it is the games changed,
right?




00:38:59

These are much more high tech EVs than
they did in the past.




00:39:03

And and by the way, like the Volt or
rather the Bolt, you know, that was kind




00:39:08

of heavily used.




00:39:09

see what you just did there.




00:39:10

I think even with the strip, uh, part of
the problems I had with their strategies,




00:39:14

the bolt, the volt people would always
like, there's even marketing.




00:39:18

I think that's what's been so surprising
to me is how you're talking about, like GM




00:39:21

had so many issues.




00:39:22

Like I feel like marketing, all these
things that traditionally has been




00:39:25

strengths for them, they even failed with
like, it has been kind of a cross support,




00:39:28

but I I'm sorry, what were we going to say
there?




00:39:34

Um, you know, with the, with the bolt, um,
you know, that, that vehicle was, and I




00:39:42

think one of the reasons that they, they
did all right with it in terms of quality




00:39:46

was it was basically a Chevy Cruz heavily
retrofitted to fit a battery and become a




00:39:52

Chevy Bull.




00:39:53

It wasn't an all-new platform and that
platform was the battery pack in the floor




00:39:58

the way it is with Ultium.




00:39:59

And you know go back about 15 plus years,
Nissan opened the plant in Mississippi and




00:40:08

they had an all-new minivan platform.




00:40:11

They had an all-new, they had the pickup
truck which was new to them and they had




00:40:14

an all-new platform for the Ultima.




00:40:16

Even though they've been making minivans
and Ultimas before, it's an all-new




00:40:18

platform.




00:40:19

They had tremendous quality and production
problems there.




00:40:22

And these are kinds of vehicles Nissan
have been making forever.




00:40:24

There's nothing special about them.




00:40:25

They were just new platforms, but they
built off a lot and all at once and had a




00:40:29

real, you know, and they choked on it.




00:40:31

And, and I think in GM's case, yeah, they
did the Volt and the Volt and they did the




00:40:36

EV1 years ago, but this, even this, this
new stuff is so different.




00:40:40

And, um, yeah, it, it was a, you know, it
was more than




00:40:45

Clearly more than they could do because
the past year has been a big problem.




00:40:48

You bring up marketing.




00:40:50

I'm not sure GM is a great marketing
company.




00:40:53

Like the GMC brand is, you know, has one
of the best brand names in the business.




00:40:59

Um, actually, I guess Chevy does, you
know, is very consistent too.




00:41:03

They've had a Cadillac's been a problem
for a long time.




00:41:06

I agree with you there too.




00:41:08

I think what I meant was specifically
around marketing their electric vehicles,




00:41:11

like doing the bolt vault and just kind of
some of this name-branding and then having




00:41:15

these huge Superbowl ads and stuff.




00:41:18

Um, obviously the big stuff of kind of
like having Biden coming in and say




00:41:23

they're leading the way.




00:41:25

And I think that totally all adds to what
you were talking about, about having all




00:41:29

this pressure on them to get out the door
and it just can almost push them to go




00:41:33

faster and




00:41:35

Unfortunately, probably at their own
detriment, but




00:41:39

Yeah, look, I think they saw it as an
existential fight.




00:41:42

And, uh, you know, and you think about it,
you know, four or five years ago,




00:41:48

everybody, analysts, investors, the think
tanks, the car companies, they all thought




00:41:55

that there was going to be a somewhat
linear, I don't think anyone thought EV




00:41:59

growth is going to be totally linear, but
I don't think they started leveling off




00:42:02

the way it is now.




00:42:03

Um, and they really, people thought
autonomy would be




00:42:07

because it's been, has it been about a
year since your book came out?




00:42:12

A little more by a year, a year and three,
four months.




00:42:15

gotcha, what would be the chapter that you
would have written to make it like




00:42:20

relevant to today or like what are the
things that maybe have surprised you or




00:42:24

kind of stand out moments that have led
since that book came out?




00:42:27

I mean, it sounds like a lot.




00:42:29

I mean, everything I've read still seems
relevant and it almost seems like the




00:42:32

stuff I've read so far has just kind of
come to fruition.




00:42:35

But I'm curious if there's anything else
you would add to it.




00:42:39

You know, yeah, definitely.




00:42:40

So look, if I could, if I could do another
chapter on this, then I would make the




00:42:47

epilogue just chapter, I think it's 12.




00:42:51

And then I would have a new epilogue that
gets into all these struggles that the




00:42:56

company has had just making battery packs
and writing the software and everything




00:43:00

with crews and that, by the way, the other
companies have had too, I think it's worse




00:43:05

at GM because GM pushed harder.




00:43:08

They sold this harder and they've had all
the problems ever.




00:43:11

So sometimes they had just software, some
of it production issues and GM's got them




00:43:14

all.




00:43:17

So there'd be a chapter just looking at
all these problems that have been way




00:43:21

worse than they thought.




00:43:22

And there's been some reputational damage
at GM about this for sure.




00:43:28

And from an investment standpoint, what
they've done, they've bought back shares




00:43:33

and they've




00:43:33

raise their dividend.




00:43:35

That's telling investors we're not a high
growth company with our EV plans right




00:43:38

now.




00:43:39

We're a value company that returns cash to
shareholders.




00:43:43

So they've sort of thrown in the towel on
being rapid growth until they get their




00:43:46

hands on this thing.




00:43:47

It doesn't mean they won't be at some
point, but that's where they are.




00:43:51

So yeah, I would have written a chapter on
that.




00:43:56

And if I could change anything about it,
the only thing that would probably really




00:44:00

change is there was some...




00:44:02

The title is still pretty cool, Charging
Ahead, because Mary Barra really did




00:44:05

charge ahead.




00:44:07

The cover language was maybe a little more
optimistic than I'd like it to be at this




00:44:15

point because they've had such a tough
time with the challenge.




00:44:18

I wanted the cover language to be more,
she's betting, making big bet on this




00:44:21

thing.




00:44:23

It's a fight that I lost.




00:44:26

Yeah.




00:44:27

Now that's interesting though.




00:44:28

But you decide in your core business,
you're going to give up all these overseas




00:44:31

markets and let Toyota, Volkswagen, and
other domestic players in those countries




00:44:36

have that sales volume and whatever
business you can do there.




00:44:41

And by the way, you know, Peugeot, which
is now Stellantis, has done pretty well




00:44:44

with Opel since GM sold it to them.




00:44:46

It can be done.




00:44:47

So, you know, it was a big gamble and so
far it hasn't paid off.




00:44:54

I still.




00:44:55

McElroy and I were talking about this on
his show.




00:44:58

We still think her vision is the right
one, but the last thing she has to fix is




00:45:04

can this company, does this company have
the chops to see it through?




00:45:07

That's the big question.




00:45:09

And I still don't have an answer to that.




00:45:11

Well, and one of the things you guys kind
of alluded to or kind of threw out there




00:45:14

that I think I watched this episode, the
one that was maybe a month ago or so, and




00:45:19

I'm kind of curious about...




00:45:23

how long she has to make those changes
before the pressure is like, we might need




00:45:30

someone else in charge.




00:45:31

Cause one of the interesting things I kind
of indirectly got a lot of attention




00:45:38

towards her in a negative way was the
whole Elon Musk pay package thing that I




00:45:42

was like, Oh, this got struck down.




00:45:44

He made $60 billion, but like, well, he
only made that money because of the




00:45:48

agreements that, and I think to some
extent there's pros and cons to it.




00:45:53

maybe unrealistic for someone who isn't a
founder, but the idea that, yeah, he got




00:45:57

paid out a bunch, but it made a bunch of
money for the shareholders.




00:46:00

And there's also other variables involved
in that.




00:46:03

But then it kind of brought in the, even
in the news cycle, some attention, like




00:46:07

they were looking at Mary Bar.




00:46:08

It's like, well, the stock prices
essentially, it went up, maybe doubled at




00:46:12

one point, but now it's back to where it
was after 10 years.




00:46:14

They've paid her $200 million.




00:46:16

And when you include inflation, it's less
than what it was worth when she started.




00:46:23

And obviously that is an uphill battle for
anyone to fight.




00:46:26

I think being the CEO of GM might be a
more difficult and less like job than




00:46:34

being president even right now.




00:46:36

But I'm kind of curious on what your
thoughts are on like that forward looking




00:46:42

and how much time she really has to make a
change to kind of guarantee she stays in




00:46:47

her role much longer.




00:46:49

Yeah, she's 62 now, right?




00:46:51

So she could retire in three years.




00:46:53

Um, and.




00:46:57

You know, I think the only way the board
would throw her out.




00:47:03

Um, I mean, look, it's, I think the optics
of, of the, you know, the first and only




00:47:10

female CEO of an auto company, um, not
saying they keep her if she wasn't doing




00:47:16

the job because of that, but, um,




00:47:20

You know, it's be tough for them to make
that call if there wasn't like a serious,




00:47:27

like something seriously wrong with the
company.




00:47:29

Like they can't just say, yeah, we need a
change in direction.




00:47:32

You're not quite it.




00:47:33

I mean, look, they can do whatever they
want, but I don't think, I don't think




00:47:37

that's why they do it bottom line.




00:47:41

Bottom line.




00:47:41

going to say that's fair.




00:47:42

And I mean, she's been CEO for a decade
now, which is a lot longer than some other




00:47:46

former GM CEOs.




00:47:48

And look, the so, you know, if the board
wants to make a case that they keep her in




00:47:54

place, and the company's profits and cash
flow are really, really strong.




00:47:58

Their core business does great.




00:48:00

And they, you know, and so her vision,
which started with making this a better




00:48:07

run, more profitable car company, look,
their vehicle quality and productivity,




00:48:12

all the stuff that had to be fixed when
she got in has been fixed.




00:48:16

So there are a lot of things on that side
of the ledger that the board would point




00:48:19

to say, you know, that this is why we
don't throw her out.




00:48:24

I'm not saying that because she's a woman,
they wouldn't fire her if she needed to be




00:48:29

fired.




00:48:29

I'm saying it's that it's, there would
just be more of a magnifying glass on any




00:48:39

decision they made like that.




00:48:41

So they would




00:48:45

The only thing I could see is, let's just
say, you know, this issue with getting the




00:48:49

vehicles out, if this persists or if
there's like some terrible situation where




00:48:57

there's a bunch of fires and some nasty
recall like we had with Bolt or with the




00:49:02

ignition switch over a decade ago, you
know, something like that and, you know,




00:49:08

she had mishandled it or was responsible
for it or if they just decided they needed




00:49:11

somebody else who could do...




00:49:13

could fix that sort of thing.




00:49:17

I think something like either just failure
to get the EVs out the door and see this




00:49:20

mission out or some other kind of
cataclysmic sort of thing.




00:49:27

Cause she's got three years and look, I
think she would want to stick around to




00:49:31

fix these problems and at least see this
part of her vision out.




00:49:34

That's what I think.




00:49:36

Yeah, I think those are really good
points.




00:49:38

And yeah, I think you're totally right.




00:49:39

Like if it was an ignition level issue,
like essentially what kind of is the




00:49:44

reason she got on the job previously, that
level of optics, that negative where they




00:49:48

kind of have to make some big changes, I
could see that.




00:49:51

But I think you're right and had what we
have discussed around like the electric




00:49:56

vehicle growth trajectories stay the same.




00:49:59

I think there'd be a lot more pressure on
her around that.




00:50:01

But since we have kind of seen that pulled
back a bit.




00:50:05

Um, I think the points you're talking to
exactly kind of put her in a pretty safe




00:50:10

space for that.




00:50:10

I just wanted to ask him to get your
thoughts on this.




00:50:13

So he's been covering it for sure.




00:50:16

years from turning 65.




00:50:18

Like, how long does she stay?




00:50:20

And, you know, because they've had these
problems, do they throw her out?




00:50:24

I mean, there's no indication they would.




00:50:26

And, you know, look, you know, they've
approved this $10 billion share buyback




00:50:33

and the financial moves that she's made
and, you know, some of the, you know,




00:50:39

promoting some young stars at the company
at the end of last year.




00:50:43

So, you know, they have to be behind her
if they're approving some of these big




00:50:46

moves.




00:50:47

So she's, you know, she's got time.




00:50:49

Now, look, if, if the board comes out and
issued a statement soon saying they fully




00:50:53

back her, that probably means she's going
to get fired.




00:50:56

Now I'm being sarcastic, but it's like,
you know, whatever, whatever puts out a




00:51:02

statement saying that the C we love the
CEO, they're doing a great job.




00:51:05

They're usually gone within a month.




00:51:07

Right.




00:51:07

No, right.




00:51:07

You know, I.




00:51:11

I could see her finishing the job at 65
pretty easily.




00:51:16

I mean, we're already less than three
years from that.




00:51:20

Right.




00:51:20

And I think when we've talked about very
briefly, but obviously we've been focused




00:51:25

more on the EV challenges they've been
having.




00:51:27

But as you mentioned earlier, cruise and
the autonomous vehicle program there, when




00:51:32

you were writing the book and just going
through that, obviously.




00:51:37

I don't know enough about the team.




00:51:39

I don't know enough about what their
program is doing or what the state of it




00:51:44

is.




00:51:45

As far as autonomous ride hailing
services, it was good.




00:51:49

It seems like Waymo even before they, uh,
kind of shut down cruise was, I think had




00:51:55

to kind of the better long-term strategy,
just personally looking from the outside.




00:51:59

And now that there's so much kind of
negativity, autonomous vehicle space,




00:52:04

especially has really cooled off in the
last 18 months, just from what we've seen




00:52:10

externally about like the head goes, then
they move all these other people.




00:52:14

And now it's like every couple of months,
there's a new announcement.




00:52:17

Now they're laying off another 24%.




00:52:19

What do you think the future for that
program is?




00:52:23

Like is it they're just kind of slowly
trying to just say, you know what, we gave




00:52:27

it a good shot and we want to get rid of
it and try not to make as big a hubbub




00:52:32

about it.




00:52:32

I mean, with even Apple just the other day
announcing that they're stopping their




00:52:36

program.




00:52:36

Like what in your research and kind of
like connections there do you think is the




00:52:42

current sentiment and maybe future for
that program at GM?




00:52:46

Yeah, we just broke a story last week that
they were resuming testing with safety




00:52:51

drivers.




00:52:52

Probably Houston or Dallas, they're
looking at those two markets.




00:52:56

Texas is a pretty easy place to run AVs.




00:52:58

The regulatory environment is pretty lax,
particularly compared to California.




00:53:02

So they're going to put their foot back in
the pond here and see what they can do




00:53:09

with it.




00:53:13

If they were going to shut it down, I
think they already would have, because




00:53:15

they were spending a lot of money on this
and their investors did not like that.




00:53:18

You know, when they, one of the things
that pushed their share price up recently




00:53:23

was the earnings were good.




00:53:25

You know, they had done all these share
buybacks and everything and they reduced




00:53:28

spending in Cruz.




00:53:30

And if you look at the valuation of GM, in
fact, Paul Jacobson, the CFO has been




00:53:34

saying this for about a year.




00:53:35

He said, look, if you buy GM now, you're
getting GM at a cheap price historically




00:53:39

and you're getting Cruz for free.




00:53:42

Which.




00:53:42

What that says is investors place no value
on it.




00:53:45

Um, and really, if you look at the other
autonomous vehicle stocks like Aurora, and




00:53:52

these are all trading at next to nothing
and, you know, none of the privately held




00:53:57

AB trucking companies, some of which are
doing some pretty interesting things,




00:54:00

they're not going public right now because
the market doesn't like any of this stuff.




00:54:03

So, um,




00:54:06

If so, point is if GM wanted to shut it
down, they could, they could shut it down




00:54:09

right now.




00:54:10

And I think their investors would like it.




00:54:12

The reason I don't think they will is one,
they do believe in the technology and in a




00:54:16

way, you know, what GM shutting the whole
thing down and a lot of the bad PR and




00:54:22

problems they've got governance problems.




00:54:27

It's almost because they've had one
incident that was horrific, also really




00:54:35

rare.




00:54:35

And now that's sort of their line.




00:54:36

That's not what I'm trying to do.




00:54:38

It's just like the technology was actually
working fairly well.




00:54:42

I don't think it was working as well as
way most, but it was working fairly well




00:54:46

in terms of safety and being able to do
its job.




00:54:49

So they see something worth saving.




00:54:52

And then look, the other part is when you
spend 10 billion dollars in buying back




00:54:55

your




00:54:56

What you're saying is we don't have a good
place to put that money that will grow the




00:55:01

business.




00:55:03

So, if they didn't spend whatever I think
the remaining is going to be one and a




00:55:06

half between one and a half and two
billion a year on cruise instead of two




00:55:09

plus, they would just buy back more shares
or raise the dividend, right?




00:55:15

And I don't think that's going to do much
for investors.




00:55:16

When you're already returning 10 billion,
returning 11 is not going to get them that




00:55:19

much more in love with your stock.




00:55:22

So, you know, they've done what they need
to do to return money to their owners.




00:55:26

And, you know, other than continuing the
EV push, Cruz is really the one other




00:55:32

place where they see some potential growth
in revenue, along with software services,




00:55:38

but that's a different issue and was never
as big a part as Cruz was supposed to be




00:55:44

in this big plan they had to grow.




00:55:46

So, you know, and look, there aren't that
many, there are two Robotech mouth, May




00:55:50

Mobility, there are three Robotexy
companies in the US left standing.




00:55:54

If you got the money,




00:55:56

Why not keep trying to develop it?




00:55:58

They're just gonna have to do it slowly.




00:56:00

I also think long-term, if RoboTaxi
doesn't work out as a business, and that's




00:56:06

different than the technology working, the
technology could work, but you still have




00:56:10

to have a business that makes money.




00:56:12

That means managing the fleet has to be
cheaper than what you can get people to




00:56:17

pay you.




00:56:19

And I'm suspicious of that, by the way,
because I don't think consumers care.




00:56:23

whether it's, you know, Vinny Romano from
Queens in the yellow cab or Uber and Lyft




00:56:29

drivers or a robot driving that car.




00:56:31

They don't care.




00:56:32

As long as it's safe on time, get
somewhere they want to go.




00:56:34

Um, and I'm an Italian American so I can
see Vinny Romano.




00:56:40

Um, and so I, you know,




00:56:44

I mean, one of my favorite things, I used
to go to New York all the time for work




00:56:48

trips.




00:56:48

And so like, if it was between a yellow
cab or I always had infinitely more fun




00:56:53

taking the cabs in New York than doing an
Uber.




00:56:57

But for the most part, consumers don't
really care.




00:57:00

And so, you know, what's the draw for the
Robotex unless it really is cheaper, and




00:57:05

then if it's cheaper, you have the cost of
running the business has to be cheap.




00:57:10

So it's got to be more than that.




00:57:11

And what could end up being if Robotex
just isn't a great business is, you know,




00:57:17

GM is theirs, being the first car company
to sell, you know, personally owned self




00:57:22

driving vehicles.




00:57:24

And, you know, consumers do like stuff
like autopilot, like GM supercruise, like




00:57:28

Ford's blue cruise.




00:57:30

You know, they like those systems and they
pay extra money as a subscription for them




00:57:35

in most cases or for the hardware.




00:57:37

So there's a business there.




00:57:38

And if you have something that's closer to
fully autonomous, I think people will pay




00:57:41

for that.




00:57:42

And there are other things, you know,
there are shuttles at certain places, you




00:57:45

know, airports, entertainment venues, the
Bourbon Trail, you name it.




00:57:49

There are places where that stuff makes a
lot of sense.




00:57:53

And there is a potential business for
fleet owned or personally on self-driving




00:57:57

vehicles.




00:57:58

And so I think they're developing it for
that reason too.




00:58:01

So if they don't have a robo taxi in every
city, so what?




00:58:04

They'll be selling these vehicles
somewhere somehow.




00:58:07

You know, Dan Avin, who used to run crews
for GM said something to me once.




00:58:10

And I think.




00:58:11

It's still probably right, which is, and
this is back when we had like, you know,




00:58:15

more than a dozen autonomous vehicle
companies getting funding.




00:58:18

He said, look, we don't need 12, 14,
whatever AV stacks.




00:58:23

It'll end up being like operating systems
where you've got Android and iOS, right?




00:58:27

You need like two or three.




00:58:29

That's not counting trucking.




00:58:30

Um, but so maybe you need a couple of
trucking and a couple for personally owned




00:58:34

vehicles.




00:58:35

So when you label, why didn't you,




00:58:37

you have commercial, I mean, that makes
sense.




00:58:40

Yeah.




00:58:42

So, it could go that direction.




00:58:43

Interesting.




00:58:44

Uh, I, I do realize we're kind of coming
up on an hour here, but there are two




00:58:49

areas I didn't want to talk to you.




00:58:51

We focused so much about GM as the company
internally, there's been two big




00:58:56

headwinds, especially in the sales of, uh,
electric vehicles and also just the




00:59:01

manufacturing that are kind of external,
but two things they GM has to work with.




00:59:05

And that is the UAW and dealerships with
the most recent, uh,




00:59:12

kind of strikes and stuff, the union
challenges, where, where do you see, do




00:59:17

you see that there is a viable way?




00:59:22

Should electric vehicles kind of get that
momentum again?




00:59:27

And if we do see Chinese and other cheaper
vehicles come in, do you think that there




00:59:32

is a strong or do you think they're the
current path is can be done with the UAW




00:59:39

or do you think that's going to cause?




00:59:41

a lot more headwinds and fighting between
GM and the UAW to get to those cost




00:59:46

competitiveness and the traditionally less
manufacturing needs of EVs.




00:59:54

I mean, so coming out of the strike, we
just had one of the big things that I




00:59:58

think kind of set the union's nerves at
ease a bit is, you know, the basically




01:00:03

brought the union into the battery plants.




01:00:06

And that was their one big fear is that
all these engine and transmission jobs




01:00:10

and, you know, fuel systems, emission
systems, all that stuff, they go away and




01:00:16

then they buy batteries and electric
motors from Asia or something like that.




01:00:19

So




01:00:20

between unionizing the battery plants and
the Inflation Reduction Act, which is




01:00:25

mandating that in order for all this money
to come in from the government, you have




01:00:28

to build it here.




01:00:30

That cut the union on that part of the
deal.




01:00:33

Now, the other part, will EVs be easier to
make?




01:00:37

There are a lot fewer parts and they're
doing things with how Tesla does vehicle




01:00:40

bodies.




01:00:41

And I think over time, that could reduce
the amount of labor needed.




01:00:46

That's kind of always happened through
efficiencies and automation and everything




01:00:49

else.




01:00:51

Does that accelerate that?




01:00:52

I'm not so sure, but I mean, if I had to
guess and say, yeah, probably will.




01:00:57

So, you know, that could be the fight for
down the road.




01:01:00

The way that car companies have always
handled this, they just, they retire




01:01:03

people out and don't replace as many of
them.




01:01:06

And although with this one, you know, this
union contract was a pretty good one for




01:01:10

the union.




01:01:10

It was pretty rich.




01:01:12

And John Fain, the UAW president kind of,
you know, he...




01:01:16

some very tough rhetoric for these
companies and things got pretty tense.




01:01:19

So I think what you'll probably see over
time is that companies remember these




01:01:28

things and if they have to downsize it,
wouldn't be their Mexican operations, put




01:01:32

it that way.




01:01:33

But look, if Chinese vehicles get here in
big numbers and they're a lot cheaper,




01:01:37

then Katie bar the door for everybody
because that's...




01:01:41

That's going to be a problem.




01:01:42

Look, Mary Barra said on the earnings
call, when she was asked about the Chinese




01:01:45

companies coming here, said there are
certain things about the Chinese market




01:01:49

that make building and developing vehicles
apparently cheaper, something to that




01:01:53

effect.




01:01:54

And it's not just labor.




01:01:56

So would the Chinese vehicles be at as big
a discount here as they are there?




01:02:04

I'm not sure.




01:02:05

I think they will be cheaper.




01:02:06

I think we can.




01:02:07

We can rest assured on that because
they've got more scale and more expertise




01:02:10

with EVs.




01:02:11

But yeah, if they can get into the US
market for a lot less money, you know, the




01:02:16

union's going to have a problem and so are
the companies.




01:02:19

Yeah, that's what's kind of been
interesting with the recent announcement




01:02:22

of BYD and others kind of moving to
Mexico.




01:02:24

So it kind of gets around a couple of the
challenges of selling into the US.




01:02:29

BYD even said they're like, oh, no, we
don't have any interest in doing that just




01:02:33

yet, we're just selling to the Mexican
market.




01:02:36

But it is hard.




01:02:39

Yeah, that's true.




01:02:40

That's that's true.




01:02:41

I think this thing I saw, she was in
Mexico City town, but you're right.




01:02:44

It's it is kind of south of the border and
then some.




01:02:48

But it's hard to believe that, okay, maybe
that's the case for the next few quarters.




01:02:53

But once those factories are up and
running, they're not going to start




01:02:57

seriously looking more at moving into the
US and trying to really compete there.




01:03:03

you saw what Biden said the other day
where, you know, EVs pose a national




01:03:06

security threat.




01:03:07

So, you know, that's, that's a way to levy
more tariffs.




01:03:10

Are you giving what, but the Biden
administration strategy looks like it's




01:03:14

going to be, it's used protectionist
measures to safeguard the U S industry




01:03:20

until they can get caught up and, and
compete because right now it doesn't look




01:03:26

like they can compete.




01:03:27

Otherwise you would need protectionist
measures.




01:03:30

Yeah.




01:03:31

And given that we're going into an
election here, it's kind of all up in the




01:03:34

air as to what that's going to be for the
future.




01:03:36

But, uh, re real briefly, I guess the last
thing would be just to talk about the




01:03:40

dealerships real quickly and your thoughts
on, obviously, uh, when GM was, Ford




01:03:49

obviously saw this too, when they were
kind of pushing some of the programs for




01:03:51

their electrification and being, uh,
certain dealerships that would push




01:03:55

electric vehicles or others, you saw a
bunch of dealerships drop out, especially




01:03:59

with Cadillac.




01:04:01

And so I'm kind of curious as to what you
think that means for GM long-term.




01:04:08

I mean, a big part of the actual, it's one
thing to you, they're having trouble




01:04:12

making the EVs.




01:04:13

Once you start making them, then you have
to actually be effectively moving them.




01:04:17

And that falls to something out of their,
a whole lot of it out of their control




01:04:22

with the dealerships.




01:04:23

And where do you think the future of that
is and possibly what GM can do to help




01:04:29

ensure their.




01:04:30

EVs that they start making are successful
and start moving other than just saying




01:04:34

they have a great starting price.




01:04:35

look, it's a great question.




01:04:37

And it's something they need to really get
on top of because, you know, we've seen




01:04:40

skepticism from the dealers, right?




01:04:42

You know, they were, uh, they were already
pushing the federal government, uh, on




01:04:48

this thing.




01:04:49

You know, if dealers, dealers don't like
change, cause that means they have to




01:04:52

invest more money and change how they do
work on, on the showroom floor.




01:04:56

Uh, they've, you know, they've been that
way.




01:04:59

However, if something sells and they can
make money on it, they'll be all over it.




01:05:04

So.




01:05:05

You know, we get down to, you know, the
big challenge for the legacy car companies




01:05:10

is once they presumably get to the point
where they're building a lot of these,




01:05:15

they do have to market them.




01:05:17

They really have to, which is a challenge.




01:05:21

They have to get people who shop EVs to
look at their brands.




01:05:25

Right.




01:05:25

Right now it's mostly Tesla and it can be
done.




01:05:30

Ford did a very good job getting awareness
for the Lightning.




01:05:33

So it certainly can be done, but they're
having issues keeping demand up for that




01:05:36

as well.




01:05:37

I think it's a function of price.




01:05:38

But, and look, they're not going to like
this because they've never had to do




01:05:43

marketing for BP and Exxon and the filling
stations, but they're going to have to do




01:05:48

something to get awareness for charging.




01:05:50

So, and it can't just be, look, we're
working with 12 different apps you can use




01:05:54

to charge.




01:05:55

They're going to have to convince people
that charging is not going to be a problem




01:05:59

for them.




01:06:00

So, you know, this is a different
marketing challenge than they've had, but




01:06:03

they have to do it.




01:06:05

Because I don't think they're not going to
be able to solve any resistance from




01:06:09

dealers on selling EVs just by talking to
the dealers.




01:06:12

I mean, there are dealers who are into it,
especially those who are in markets where




01:06:17

people like EVs.




01:06:18

And luxury dealers are into it because
they know luxury buyers like EVs.




01:06:22

But they, you know, they're really, as we
try to, as we see them try to penetrate




01:06:28

the mass market.




01:06:30

that they're just going to have to have
vehicles that sell because, you know, if




01:06:35

you asked a dealer 25 years ago, do you
want to invest a bunch of money in, uh, in




01:06:41

Hyundai, you know, after it wasn't the
Excel that had all those quality problems




01:06:45

in the nineties, um, you know, 25, 30
years ago, how can I use you in this




01:06:50

Hyundai franchise?




01:06:51

They'd say, no, you have one crappy
compact with bad quality problems.




01:06:54

Forget about it.




01:06:55

But now, you know,




01:06:57

Hyundai sales are pretty strong, they're a
big piece of the market and a lot of




01:07:00

dealers are investing in those franchises.




01:07:02

Those guys, you know, the money talks and
those guys follow it.




01:07:05

So you know, they've just got to make
products people want, they have to market




01:07:08

them, they have to market the whole
charging experience, get people used to it




01:07:11

and that'll solve any issue with the
dealers.




01:07:13

Those guys like selling cars and that's
all there is to it.




01:07:17

Well, it's interesting you mentioned
Hyundai and Kia because yeah, both of them




01:07:20

have had pretty successful electric
vehicles just from a product standpoint.




01:07:24

And so it makes it a lot easier to then
sell them.




01:07:27

One thing I've heard, and I became a
curious on maybe your thoughts of this is




01:07:30

like a lot of very electric vehicle
advocates are pushing for the idea.




01:07:34

Well, the OEM should just spiff electric
vehicles more instead of the regular




01:07:41

combustion engine cars at dealerships.




01:07:43

And my immediate thing is like, well,
okay, so they have to now even pay more.




01:07:46

what thin margins and challenges they had
with EVs just becomes even that much more




01:07:50

exponential.




01:07:52

I think it totally goes to what you're
saying about like, yeah, a salesperson is




01:07:56

going to be incentivized.




01:07:58

If they have to do more work, but there's
a bigger payoff, yeah, that probably would




01:08:01

work.




01:08:02

But do you think that is a realistic
possibility with just the other financial




01:08:09

challenges I guess that some of these
companies are having with just getting the




01:08:13

EVs off to the dealerships?




01:08:16

You know, they may have to invest some
money here and, you know, maybe, you know,




01:08:22

they add incentive.




01:08:23

I mean, look, there's a lot of government
money incentivizing these things already.




01:08:27

But to get dealers on board, do they have
to raise the markup that the dealers get




01:08:32

to keep?




01:08:33

I mean, it's a possibility.




01:08:35

The dealers don't like when they kind of
they do stuff like that.




01:08:39

The dealers want to kind of manage that
side of it.




01:08:42

But.




01:08:42

I mean, that's one thing they could do.




01:08:44

And look, the car companies have been
cutting the markup that the dealers get to




01:08:49

keep for a long time.




01:08:51

And so, you know, if you push that in the
other direction for EVs, that could move




01:08:56

the needle.




01:08:57

Um, I think they've got programs to help
them invest the money they need for the




01:09:02

repairs and service base and that sort of
thing.




01:09:04

Uh, but it is an investment for these
guys.




01:09:06

So, um, you know, it.




01:09:09

to get them all onside, they're going to
have to do it.




01:09:11

Look, you've seen GM with its Cadillac and
Buick dealers, you've seen them thin the




01:09:16

herd because some of them, they just
basically bought them out if they didn't




01:09:20

want to sell EVs.




01:09:23

And in some ways it's better because their
dealer network was too big on some markets




01:09:30

anyway.




01:09:30

So the surviving dealers just sell more
cars and they're happy, because they're




01:09:35

getting more throughput in their store.




01:09:37

more profit for them.




01:09:39

So, you know, I think they may have to
create these incentives, but you know,




01:09:44

look, the biggest thing they can do is
just make a cool EV that people want.




01:09:48

And I mean, it would sound simple, but you
do that.




01:09:52

And the dealers, the dealers, if
something, if customers want to move it,




01:09:56

when I talk to dealers, the biggest
complaint is that a lot of them will tell




01:09:59

me the same thing.




01:10:00

You know, people aren't coming in here
asking us for EVs.




01:10:03

And I mean, the good or bad is if it's a
hot car, they can mark it up.




01:10:07

And exactly.




01:10:09

So, uh, I think that is really, uh, I, I
completely agree with you.




01:10:13

I think the challenge and that's obviously
why Tesla has had so much success along




01:10:17

with some of the other startups is good
product.




01:10:19

You have a product that looks good, that
works well, easy to use.




01:10:23

Uh, and some of it obviously is
generational connection, but yeah, I, I




01:10:28

think that is the biggest challenge that
some of these legacy automakers have.




01:10:31

I.




01:10:32

I agree with you, the lightning's a good
product, but it's way too for what it is.




01:10:35

It's priced way too high.




01:10:36

That's, yeah, the price is still way too
big for most people on a lot of these EVs.




01:10:42

And, uh, I guess one last thing, I'm
sorry.




01:10:45

Uh, then we'll let you go with the
announcement yesterday of, uh, for now




01:10:49

being able to use the Tesla charging
network.




01:10:52

Do you think, uh, I think that does kind
of help actually with some of the




01:10:55

education and just kind of off-line at the
now dealerships instead of having to go




01:10:59

really deep into it was like, Hey, you can
use the Tesla ones.




01:11:01

They work.




01:11:02

Do you think that is a wise long-term
strategy for these companies that




01:11:08

essentially every.




01:11:09

time that someone goes on a road trip or
needs to charge somewhere.




01:11:13

They're using a literally a competitor's
product and then sees the.




01:11:16

Okay, I've asked them this question myself
and they all tell me, you know, it's not




01:11:20

it's not a problem But you know when
you're when you're arch rival and selling




01:11:24

EVs, it's their brand name on the charger
that works Look that is a marketing




01:11:30

advantage for Tesla You know one
underrated thing about Tesla's they're a




01:11:33

great marketing company and Elon Musk is a
great marketer himself And look in some




01:11:38

ways he you know, he can be his own worst
enemy But the guys just you know, he and




01:11:43

his company always have attention, right?




01:11:47

I think they are kind of the example of
even bad news is good news.




01:11:52

Yeah.




01:11:54

So look, if people like the other EVs,
they'll buy them and just use Tesla's




01:12:05

charger knowing that that's the place to
go charge.




01:12:10

And look, Tesla will make some money off
of this because they'll build more




01:12:12

chargers and they'll make some money off
of this.




01:12:15

It's not like the charging business isn't
a huge moneymaker for them.




01:12:18

But




01:12:19

it will make them some money.




01:12:20

Yeah, I think as I look at the market, I
mean, other than Cybertruck, you know,




01:12:25

Tesla's vehicles, you know, you're looking
at two big, two sedans, two crossovers




01:12:32

with pretty much the same styling.




01:12:34

So, you know, as we get more vehicles from
other companies with from brands that




01:12:39

people are already loyal to, you know, I
think they can overcome the fact that




01:12:46

people are going to go to Tesla for
charging.




01:12:48

And the other thing is like people go to
so many different chargers wherever they




01:12:52

needed, wherever it's convenient that I
think they'll be okay with it, but




01:12:59

I think there's truth to that and
definitely in the long term, but as




01:13:02

someone who's done a lot of UV road trips,
I've been consistently disappointed by




01:13:07

the, oh yeah.




01:13:09

And every time it's like, every time I try
to give them the benefit of the doubt and




01:13:12

I'm like, well, actually this is a higher
power charge when technically it'll be




01:13:15

like, it'll save me 10 minutes.




01:13:17

It always costed me 20 minutes.




01:13:18

Um, and I usually just ended up driving to
the Tesla one down the road anyway.




01:13:22

But, um, I, I guess one comment on that is
I, I do think it was really,




01:13:26

It's interesting that Jim Farley and the
four team did kind of position.




01:13:30

I thought they were vocal about this.




01:13:31

I haven't really heard a similar thing
from Jim, but they looked at it as.




01:13:34

Actually, it's a great opportunity to get
in with Tesla and like see Tesla drivers,




01:13:38

then see our products on a regular basis
and almost kind of looked at as an




01:13:42

acquisition or whether that is them trying
to do market and position.




01:13:46

Why they have to do this.




01:13:48

I don't know, but at least the strategy of
it did sound kind of good.




01:13:50

Um, and then the other thing that I hope.




01:13:53

I'm imagining GM will do is the fact that
they included the plug and charge




01:13:57

protocol.




01:13:57

So when you plug in a four DV, it charges
pretty much exactly this.




01:14:02

You don't have to use the app.




01:14:03

You don't have to kind of do all the other
stuff that these other chart.




01:14:06

I mean, once again, which makes the
charging network for Tesla that much




01:14:08

better.




01:14:09

But, um, with that, David, I've taken
plenty of your time today.




01:14:13

I really do want to say thank you for all
this has been really fascinating.




01:14:16

And I'm sure listeners would have really
enjoyed your perspective and just kind of




01:14:20

learning more about.




01:14:21

the GM backstory and challenges they faced
with electric vehicles and where they're




01:14:25

going.




01:14:26

So I'll let you get going and thank you so
much for joining us today.




01:14:34

As we wrap up today's episode with David
Welch, we hope you've found this episode




01:14:38

of Grid Connections both insightful and
inspiring.




01:14:41

David's expertise and his book Charging
Ahead offer a fascinating glimpse into the




01:14:45

challenges and opportunities facing
General Motors as it tries to reinvent




01:14:49

itself in the current automotive industry.




01:14:52

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