Summary
Ed Bernardon, Host of the Future Car Podcast, delves into the impact of motorsports on electric vehicle innovation, focusing on sustainability, lightweight materials, and safety advancements. Alongside Chase, he discusses the role of carbon fiber, battery technology, and the future of e-fuels in shaping a sustainable automotive industry, emphasizing a balanced approach to fuel sources for the future.
Takeaways
- Motorsports must stay relevant to younger audiences, driving sustainability through electrification.
- Formula E leads advancements in EV technology, with innovations benefiting consumer vehicles.
- E-fuels and battery tech, including solid-state developments, aim to reduce racing emissions.
- Electric systems outperform combustion engines for light vehicles, while hydrogen may suit heavy industry.
- The future of racing (and transportation) will likely blend electric, hydrogen, and e-fuel technologies for a balanced approach.
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Keywords
electric vehicles, motorsports, technology, sustainability, innovation, carbon fiber, Formula E, racing, hybrid vehicles, automotive industry, automotive, motorsports, sustainability, electric vehicles, e-fuels, battery technology, carbon fiber, lightweight design, innovation, performance
00:00:05
Good morning grid connections listeners.
00:00:07
Today we have Ed Bernadon, the host of the future cars podcast, along with being a former
VP at Siemens.
00:00:12
He currently runs his own consultancy for motor sport technologies.
00:00:16
It has a remarkable background spanning from the world of high tech manufacturing to the
cutting edge of motor sports.
00:00:21
He's here to share his insights in the world of motor sports, along with how the space is
pushing electrification in many forms.
00:00:27
Throughout this episode, we'll discuss the intersection of electric vehicle technology and
motor sports.
00:00:32
The challenges of scaling, sustainable fuels and how motor sports are embracing
electrification to stay relevant to new generation of fans.
00:00:39
If you're curious about the future of racing, battery innovation, or the potential of
carbon neutral fuels, this episode is a must listen.
00:00:46
As always, we'd love for you to share this episode with at least one friend or colleague
who'd enjoy it too.
00:00:51
And if you're enjoying our podcast, please take a moment to leave a pause review on our
podcast page.
00:00:55
Your support helps us bring more exciting conversations like this to you with that.
00:01:00
Enjoy.
00:01:07
Yeah, Chase, great to be with you.
00:01:10
yeah, maybe I'll give you little bit of my background, show how this world of technology
and motorsports has sort of come together here.
00:01:18
just going way back, my parents were both from Italy.
00:01:22
They actually immigrated to the United States after the war and they settled in
Indianapolis, which is the home of the Indianapolis 500.
00:01:29
there were no...
00:01:31
baseball or basketball, football fans in my family, it was all about racing because Mario
and Dready happened to come from the same part of Italy.
00:01:38
So, and being in Indianapolis, of course, especially in the month of May, racing is what
that city's all about.
00:01:45
So that was really how sort of I got interested in racing in the first place.
00:01:49
When I got out of, from Purdue University, I went into the automotive industry, worked at
GM.
00:01:54
And then now my wife, then my girlfriend convinced me to go to grad school.
00:01:59
I sort of didn't really want to because I really enjoyed making all that money and having
fun going to bars and all that kind of thing.
00:02:04
But anyways, I ended up coming to Boston, going to grad school and my first job out of
grad school because I had mainly focused on robotics was making robots to make clothes.
00:02:17
So this was with the Draper laboratory.
00:02:20
They're known for their guidance systems and missiles and things like that.
00:02:23
They decided to get into the commercial business and somehow they picked making robots to
make clothes.
00:02:28
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:02:29
So it was really, we're really some of the first to work in that area.
00:02:35
And we developed a lot of expertise for handling flexible fabrics with robots.
00:02:40
And due to the fact that Draper Laboratory has so many connections in the military and in
defense industry, we said, hey, we could apply technology for manipulating flexible
00:02:52
fabrics to carbon fiber.
00:02:55
because it's pretty much carbon fiber starts off as a fabric.
00:02:58
And that's what we did.
00:02:59
And we started making machines that actually ended up going into factories for forming
parts for helicopters, Sikorsky, United Technologies, those kinds of companies, as well as
00:03:13
at the time Ford Motor Company was also looking at doing composites.
00:03:17
So we went from making machines for making t-shirts and blue jeans, parts for men's suits,
using almost exact same technology for making airplanes.
00:03:27
The one thing that came out of that was this little piece of software we designed that we
needed to figure out when you shape a piece of fabric into three dimensions or a piece of
00:03:38
carbon fiber, first you have to cut it out in two dimensions.
00:03:41
And since carbon fiber is so expensive, knowing the shape to cut out in two dimensions so
it fits perfectly in three was a hard thing to do.
00:03:50
since we were doing a lot of experiments, we figured there was software out there to do
that.
00:03:55
There wasn't.
00:03:56
We wrote it.
00:03:57
And it turns out people were more interested in that software than they were in the
machines we were building.
00:04:02
So myself and three other people started a company.
00:04:07
And initially, it was really software that would predict the 2D shape for any 3D shape you
wanted to lay up for composites.
00:04:15
And we built that business from about four people to about 80 or so over a 10-year period.
00:04:22
And our main customers,
00:04:25
Our biggest customers were in aerospace.
00:04:27
Anything that had to be fast, light, and very expensive, military helicopter, fighter
plane, they're pretty much made out of composites.
00:04:34
However, Formula One, they're pretty much, certainly the car body itself, suspension
components, that type of thing, are all made out of carbon fiber as well.
00:04:47
And although they were a small part of our business, they always got our software first
because racing has this knack
00:04:54
for taking anything you think is going to work perfectly.
00:04:57
And they're able to show you every fault and they do it fast.
00:05:00
It's not like an airplane.
00:05:02
A new one is designed every five years or so.
00:05:05
In Formula One, you learn something in one race and you're designing a new composite
component for two weeks down the road.
00:05:11
So as part of that, we got to really know the Formula One teams.
00:05:18
over that period of time, a lot of them now are our good, good friends.
00:05:22
And so we were acquired by Siemens.
00:05:27
once at Siemens, and this is a typical transition, I think, from a startup of 80 people to
a corporation with 350 people, continue to do the composites work.
00:05:42
it actually, it was a little bit easier.
00:05:44
Let's just say I had some spare time.
00:05:47
And in that spare time,
00:05:50
We used it to develop business and as always I said, this is my chance to really get back
into motorsports with the technology power that Siemens had and so that's pretty much what
00:06:01
I did and Just as an example of some of the projects the first one was with the FIA which
is the sanctioning body for Formula One rally and all those and what we did was we We took
00:06:13
autonomous car sensors lidar radar cameras and we mounted them inside
00:06:18
rally cars and rally cars are these they don't race against each other they race against
time but on dirt and they fly through the air people can walk right up to the track if you
00:06:29
want to call it that and sometimes even sticking their arms out in the middle so we were
using the sensors these types of sensors to detect spectators like hiding in the bushes
00:06:39
and the tall grass so that the people running the event could go in there pull them back
to safety that was one we did another project with this
00:06:47
series called Extreme E that had electric race cars and we helped them convert those to
hydrogen.
00:06:54
And even some that were related to autonomous cars, not necessarily racing, but another
one where we designed an all composite autonomous car that had the radar actually in the
00:07:04
skin.
00:07:04
Anyways, started doing those types of projects.
00:07:07
And my last position at Siemens was the VP of Motorsports and Racing Strategy, which
really started to bring together all the different divisions of Siemens from
00:07:17
sustainability in buildings to engineering software to energy and working more closely
with a lot of the F1 teams.
00:07:25
now I've gone on getting more back into that startup mode, working with startups and
companies in the motorsports and technology industry.
00:07:34
So drifted away a little bit into textiles and clothing, but you know, that magnet of
motorsports is always there to pull me back.
00:07:43
Yeah, I mean, I think there's quite a few different great things you brought up with that.
00:07:46
And thank you for sharing your background.
00:07:49
I think it's always really fascinating how so much of, especially when you kind of get
into like carbon fiber and that realm, there's actually a pretty large overlap with the
00:08:00
textile world because of how it's manufactured.
00:08:03
And it's been a while since I've played around with it, but I actually used to use it
quite a bit when...
00:08:09
either mocking up stuff or even building kind of some lightweight bodies on cars.
00:08:14
And it's just a really fascinating technology that a lot of, if you kind of learn more and
more about the history, there is a big overlap there because of like the weaving needed to
00:08:23
get the carbon fibers just right to make the layups and stuff and a lot of those
technologies.
00:08:29
So it's really fascinating here that one, you're involved with that.
00:08:31
But then two, I think especially what you're talking about about that kind of rapid
testing and prototyping needed to really push kind of the limits of the,
00:08:39
technologies and that you're right it's definitely done in aerospace but it just seems
like as far as the speed at which it's done it and also just kind of the not not just even
00:08:51
the speed but how the frequency of how it's done in motorsport just still seems to be like
second to none so I think it's so great to see so many of these technologies really be
00:09:01
pushed there and I think we get a lot of questions to that is motorsport still relevant
especially
00:09:09
this realm of electrification.
00:09:11
It seems like it's such a different thing and how can you really take these technologies
that are being tested in that space and like make it so it's something that the average
00:09:19
consumer can kind of use.
00:09:22
I think I know this is kind an area we want to talk about about how these events kind of
embrace this and kind of with electrification.
00:09:30
But I think I'd just be kind of curious to hear your thoughts at a high level.
00:09:35
anything that you've seen or noticed with electrification and kind of motorsport as far as
like, okay, these are things that motorsport are testing with electrification and what the
00:09:46
end consumer is actually seeing in products that they can either go buy or having a,
whether it's maybe not the high tier like carbon fiber products they're seeing on the
00:09:58
actual cars they buy, but there's learning from that that are making their ways down to
the consumer.
00:10:04
Well, you know, when you think about motorsports, you do think about all these high tech
things like carbon fiber and all that.
00:10:10
But I think one thing that you have to remember about motorsports is really an
entertainment business.
00:10:16
And if you're in entertainment, your brand, your perception by people is really, really
important.
00:10:26
And the average age of the racing fan
00:10:31
is getting younger and younger like it is for any other kind of entertainment.
00:10:34
So it's really, really important for the motorsports industry to stay relevant to this new
generation of fans that are coming in.
00:10:44
I was on a, I had a guest on the podcast, name was Bob Bell.
00:10:49
He was the team principal, the leader for the Formula One team that won the championship.
00:10:55
was, think 2005 and six.
00:10:57
It was the Renault Formula One team.
00:10:59
And I asked Bob Bell, said, Bob.
00:11:02
What's going to happen when if Formula One becomes electric in 2030 or beyond?
00:11:09
What's going to happen when the roar of the engine goes away?
00:11:12
The diehard fan.
00:11:13
And Bob said, that's not going to matter.
00:11:17
All those guys are going to be dead by then.
00:11:20
And so the this idea of being relevant to your audience and the audience would appeal to,
I think, forces motorsports to align with those needs.
00:11:30
And I think
00:11:31
Everyone is concerned about sustainability.
00:11:33
Everyone is concerned about more efficient use of energy.
00:11:38
And so you're seeing in Formula One, for instance, in the 2026 rules, you're going to have
a 50-50 engine, which is half electric and half internal combustion.
00:11:49
Still a thousand horsepower, but half of it's going to be electric.
00:11:52
Right now it's about 1585, still around a thousand horsepower.
00:11:57
So you're seeing that.
00:12:00
There is this commitment in Formula One to net zero by 2030.
00:12:05
And a lot of that has to do with travel logistics and those kind of things, not just the
car itself.
00:12:10
But of course, I think that one of the best examples of electric technology, EV
technology, is the Formula E series.
00:12:21
And those are all electric vehicles.
00:12:23
It's been out there for about 10 years or so, maybe a little over that.
00:12:27
And they've done a lot of work in development of different types of technology.
00:12:35
think probably one of the most in things that are related, say, to battery efficiency,
type of thing.
00:12:44
So 800 volt systems, battery energy, power management software, those types of things,
which have moved in the commercial sector.
00:12:55
And in fact,
00:12:56
We've got, let's see, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Audi, Jaguar, Maserati, Porsche, NIO
are all companies that at one time or another have had teams in Formula One.
00:13:10
The other thing is they try and keep a focus on sustainability.
00:13:16
And the first is they run their races in cities, not on specifically built racetracks,
that type of thing.
00:13:25
That's Formula E, that's EV propulsion in racing.
00:13:31
There's a new series, relatively new, within the last four five years, which is called
Extreme E.
00:13:38
Now, that is a really interesting series because for one, they have no spectators.
00:13:45
So I guess you could think of it as an online series and moving spectators, hundreds of
thousands of people.
00:13:51
to different cities.
00:13:52
There's a lot of greenhouse gases that occur just from doing that.
00:13:55
However, so theirs is a, it's a, they stream the events and their electric SUVs that race
in areas that are challenged by climate change to bring attention to those areas.
00:14:09
So for instance, they may run in an area, they ran for in an abandoned coal mine in
Scotland.
00:14:16
They did a race there.
00:14:17
They did races in Sardinia and Italy to bring attention to the wildfires that had been
hurting the environment.
00:14:24
Senegal, glaciers in Greenland, the rainforest in South America.
00:14:28
When they move their equipment, they move it by ship rather than by 747s and that kind of
thing.
00:14:34
All the cars, all that kind of thing.
00:14:37
And they are now even taking that series and transferring the drive train from electric.
00:14:44
there's going to be a transfer to the power generation to hydrogen.
00:14:49
So that's what I think are, you know, a really, really, really good example.
00:14:53
the same guy, Alejandro Agog, that started Formula E, started Extreme E.
00:14:58
He also started a new series just this year called E1, which is electric boats.
00:15:04
being from Boston and a fan of the Patriots, Tom Brady owns a
00:15:11
one of the teams and of course won the first race.
00:15:13
And I remember speaking with Alejandro.
00:15:15
I said, you met Tom Brady.
00:15:17
How exciting.
00:15:18
He goes, I've never met anyone that's so competitive as him.
00:15:22
But that's an example.
00:15:24
I mean, you have people like Tom Brady getting into the sport.
00:15:26
It's all electric driven and even NASCAR and NASCAR will probably never have an electric
drive, at least not for the foreseeable future in their main series, but they have in
00:15:37
development right now.
00:15:38
And in fact, it's already been tested an electric version.
00:15:41
of their car that runs at, that may run eventually say at a feeder series.
00:15:46
So it's the traditional role that motorsports has always taken.
00:15:51
And I think now it only makes sense for them to do it in this realm of electric vehicles
as they've done everywhere else.
00:16:01
I I completely agree and I think what is really interesting about the realm of motorsport,
especially with electrification, is it does do all that and kind going back to your
00:16:10
original comment about being entertainment, it does definitely do that.
00:16:14
And it also kind of provides to people watching just the fact that electrification does
work.
00:16:19
We have electric cars in reality that sure you can buy anything from a Nissan Leaf to like
some fully loaded Tesla or Lucid or even electric Porsche now.
00:16:29
But this kind of shows
00:16:31
it can also be really fun.
00:16:33
It's not just kind of the more average experience, but there's a lot that electrification
can really provide with that.
00:16:39
I think what you're talking about around, especially like the example of trying to get rid
of a lot of the greenhouse gases and stuff like that by looking at other supply chains,
00:16:49
because I think what you're talking about is so accurate and spot on is people don't
realize, they think about Formula One or a lot of motor sports as just the racing and like
00:16:59
building a race car.
00:17:01
But the actual logistics between events and getting all of these things between the series
are just unbelievably mind-blowing.
00:17:08
And then to themselves, truly impressive, like the efficiency of the logistic teams and
trying to get all these things set up in advance and then having it prepped and then
00:17:17
having the cars and then actually racing that weekend and hoping that the car itself
doesn't break down and how much like people think of like the car breaking down being the
00:17:25
big thing, but there's so many things that have to go right before even the race and even
the car arriving.
00:17:31
for these scenes to be successful that is a big challenge in itself to try and get those
more.
00:17:39
Not necessarily always electrified, but yeah, kind of go to that conversation around
greenhouse gases and try to make it a cleaner and more efficient system.
00:17:46
But I guess one of the other things I'd really like to talk to you about is how we've kind
of looked at that, what going beyond racing and some of the team players in this and how
00:17:58
they're embracing kind of electrification and that, what are you seeing as someone who's
been in motorsport that really stands out to you, not just in the obviously
00:18:09
we talked about logistics, but kind of about the whole infrastructure around charging,
around the products that are kind of coming to the market for the consumer.
00:18:19
Is there anything that you've seen in your conversations or just kind of indirectly
experienced where this is clearly becoming a big thing for them to make these changes and
00:18:29
embrace it in a new way?
00:18:32
You know, like I was saying, I think traditionally motorsports has always taken that role
to be the leader in development.
00:18:39
And, you you said something just a few seconds ago that I thought was interesting is when
the Prius came out and there was a plug-in hybrid, but it was the first realm into the
00:18:50
world of electric for many people.
00:18:52
And they prided themselves.
00:18:55
You know, I'm not sure if everyone's going to agree with this, but they pride themselves
in being a very ugly car.
00:18:59
And he almost
00:19:00
If you're going to be an electric car, you had to be ugly.
00:19:04
so that you, everyone would know.
00:19:08
Yeah, yeah, everyone had to know that you were a pioneer.
00:19:14
You were an early adopter.
00:19:16
And, but now if you look like take the model S Plaid, the zero to 60 for model S Plaid can
beat a formula one car.
00:19:26
Now it's not the now an electric car with all its weight is not so good on the turns.
00:19:31
Right.
00:19:31
So you, you, you're not going to see a model S winning an F1 race, but if you were doing a
drag race and I think they're there, I've seen some things online.
00:19:39
I can't vouch.
00:19:41
They were 100%.
00:19:42
But they did a nine 11 versus a model S I think it was, trailering a nine 11 and it could
still beat the nine 11 on, on, on a quarter mile or whatever it might be.
00:19:55
So.
00:19:57
I do think that the impact on commercial, if you want to call it, or the consumer, is
probably a better way to put it, is this melding of performance with EVs, rather than
00:20:10
being a early adopter Prius owner, if you want to call it that.
00:20:14
That's really evolved over the last 10 or 12 years.
00:20:18
And it's a sign that electric vehicles are coming into the mainstream.
00:20:25
I do think though that there's a lot of things that motorsports has done in terms of
innovation that we really take for granted.
00:20:35
We, we forgotten came from motorsports.
00:20:37
And I think, I think the first winner of the Indianapolis 500 was the first to use a rear
view mirror.
00:20:44
So that came from racing seat belts, disc brakes, anti-lock brakes, radial tires.
00:20:52
And in Formula E.
00:20:55
The 800 volt systems, the ability to run at higher voltages, silicon carbide inverters,
which are way more efficient.
00:21:03
And I think, as I mentioned before, there's some strict rules in Formula E as to how many
battery packs you can use and the ability to manage that battery pack in such a way that
00:21:14
you can get the most energy out of it, I think, are things that will immediately
00:21:21
work their way, or certainly over time, they've already actually worked their way into the
commercial world.
00:21:25
Now they do have some interesting things in Formula E.
00:21:28
Some of them they tried and then they took them away, for a time there was a chance if you
drove over a section of the track, it would actually give you a power boost.
00:21:37
Yeah, and it kind of goes to that entertainment level for sure.
00:21:41
I always thought that was an interesting kind of marketing thing and I kind of thought it
was innovative and I respected it for what they were doing.
00:21:49
But I do understand why a lot of people kind of found it a little too video gamey.
00:21:54
then yeah, you could vote.
00:21:56
I think this was pretty early on too where you could vote for certain drivers and who...
00:22:02
Yeah, whoever had like the highest, which I mean from a marketing, kind of social media
engagement, I thought was kind of clever and interesting way to do it, to leverage what
00:22:09
they could be done.
00:22:10
But right, overall, it may take out some of the reasons that people were actually watching
it to begin with was trying to see a more, I don't want to say even playing field, but
00:22:25
seeing kind of the drivers drive and then also like see what the technology was capable
of.
00:22:31
while it got people engaged, also kind of sometimes maybe gave them an unfair advantage or
just kind of took it out of what the racing is supposed to be.
00:22:38
But you're right, like they've changed from like how there were multiple cars and then
they'd swap between the cars and then how they'd charge the cars between the races.
00:22:46
And it really is interesting to see how that's evolved too and that they can have these
battery packs and charge them like they did.
00:22:53
Well, and again, so you tune in, you see, look at this, this interesting thing where you
can charge the car on the road.
00:23:04
I didn't even know you could charge a car on a road.
00:23:06
Wow.
00:23:07
Is that something that can even be done?
00:23:09
And it probably opens up eyes for people as to, well, listen, racing now, when can I drive
into my garage and actually charge my car?
00:23:21
You know, I was,
00:23:22
A friend of mine asked me about, is there any plugin hybrids that you recommend?
00:23:27
And I always thought a plugin hybrid was really good because it takes away the range
anxiety.
00:23:33
And most of time you never drive more than 30, 40, 50 miles in a day.
00:23:37
And most of them can cover that.
00:23:39
Be nice if they did at least a hundred or something.
00:23:41
But, but then I went online to investigate and I find these articles that say plugin
hybrids will never be popular.
00:23:50
And one of the reasons was.
00:23:52
people hate to have to plug it back in every night to get their 40 miles back.
00:23:57
And I'm thinking, well, if I had an electric, sounds like, cause my wife has a Tesla and
she plugs hers in, but she doesn't have to plug it in every night.
00:24:06
She'll plug it in once, maybe plug it in again in two weeks.
00:24:10
So the idea of being able just to drive into your garage and the next morning, you get
your 40 miles back without having to get out and plug it in is actually.
00:24:20
might be an interesting way to get people to drive more on electric drive, even though
you've got that in a plug-in hybrid, you've got that internal combustion engine as backup.
00:24:30
Yeah, I I found...
00:24:33
I've definitely found, I think personally for me, I either prefer a fully electric or a
fully combustion platform like electric as a daily driver even.
00:24:42
Now there's some fun driving electric vehicles out there too, but then having kind of a
combustion for the weekend and like, for example, I mean, I have a 1987 Land Rover
00:24:52
Defender 90 that we used to like go off-roading and do stuff with.
00:24:56
And I think last year we put about 4 miles on it, but then we put 30 miles on our
Model Y.
00:25:03
And sure, the Land Rover gets like 10 miles per gallon, but I was even trying to figure
out like, okay, at 10 miles per gallon, 4 miles per year versus the 30 we did on
00:25:13
the Tesla, even like the MPGE and all these things that are kind of nebulous, but are
trying to build these equivalents for people to understand, it still was like such a big
00:25:25
improvement over kind of the plug and hybrid, if we had just had a plug and hybrid over
and try to charge it electric as much as we could.
00:25:33
What I think is so interesting is my experience with plug-in hybrids are, it's exactly
that.
00:25:39
That there's a lot of people who are curious and they may not be ready or may not be
living somewhere or have kind of a lifestyle that quite works with having a fully electric
00:25:48
where you can charge it overnight or something every time.
00:25:52
And it's definitely been a really interesting kind of stepping stone to watch some people
I know who have gotten them.
00:25:58
Some have had kind of a...
00:26:01
I say a bad experience, pretty quickly they see people who had a fully electric car and
they're like, in retrospect, maybe I didn't feel comfortable or confident doing that, but
00:26:12
that is probably what I should have done because charging this thing's kind of annoying
because it actually charges slower than my friend's Tesla.
00:26:22
so there's kind of these like weird little interesting things that I never really expected
that were kind of idiosyncrasies like.
00:26:29
Someone I know got a...
00:26:32
The Volvo plug-in hybrid, they love the Volvo overall, but the issues they've had were
some sort of thing with the battery and like the systems talking together so they had it
00:26:42
taken to service.
00:26:44
And then what was interesting was her husband has a Tesla Model Y.
00:26:49
And so when she plugged it in, she expected to get like 11 kilowatts.
00:26:53
And even though the battery is so much smaller and it charges at seven kilowatts, the
Delta between time to charge up that 40 miles of range versus the
00:27:02
pack of the Tesla turned out to be pretty different.
00:27:08
so it has been really interesting and I think it is there's definitely a need for the
technology and definitely space for it.
00:27:14
But it is kind of fascinating to me and I think it's something we see with like a lot of
the early Chevy Volt owners.
00:27:19
They love the Volt but the vast majority of them pretty quickly realize like over this
past year I maybe use that combustion engine once or twice and if it had just been all
00:27:30
electric it would have been fine.
00:27:32
Maybe I'd go charge if I went on a long road trip, then there's yeah, they're just all
these kind of interesting things like in practice it pretty quickly
00:27:41
And I think so many people just don't like cars and don't like dealing with cars.
00:27:46
And pretty quickly, when you realize you don't have to do oil changes anymore, you don't
have to do a lot of these other things that the shift to electrification is actually a
00:27:55
pretty big net benefit.
00:27:56
Assuming you can charge it or have access to like level two charging regularly, it's a
pretty easy switch.
00:28:03
But like you're even saying with like with the Tesla or a lot of electric vehicles now in
that price point and that size,
00:28:11
Is it ideal to probably always have them plugged in?
00:28:14
Sure.
00:28:15
But you can go a few days.
00:28:17
You can kind of have a setup where it's not plugged in every night and you're not going to
be doomed or worrying about it.
00:28:24
Versus like if you want to be running on electric with a plug-in hybrid, there's kind of
present cons of that.
00:28:29
Well, and you said it too, is that if the goal, if the number one thing that keeps you
from getting an electric car is range anxiety and not knowing if you can plug it in and
00:28:41
having, like for instance, a Soul Race go-kart, I have a go-kart trailer.
00:28:47
And I'll tell you what, I have an old Honda pickup that I use to tow that thing.
00:28:52
And I might use it a dozen times per year.
00:28:56
And it's not a very expensive truck and it's, you know, still runs.
00:28:59
But the mileage on that truck is cut in half as soon as I put that trailer on it.
00:29:05
And that's exactly what's going to happen to that.
00:29:07
If I tried to tow it with an electric car, I wouldn't be able to get to a track that's 200
miles away.
00:29:13
But I think in general, if you can, if you can afford it, a new used, a used internal
combustion engine car that you use occasionally for that longer trip is one way to do it.
00:29:22
I think another thing too is.
00:29:25
is the plug-in hybrid and the design of the plug-in hybrid.
00:29:28
Right now they're 50, 75, why not 150?
00:29:32
Or maybe 200 and make that internal combustion engine smaller.
00:29:36
Because you really need that on the highway.
00:29:39
You need it for that long trip.
00:29:40
And if you look at the amount of horsepower, in fact, I tried to do some digging on this,
is exactly how much horsepower do you need to keep a regular sedan moving?
00:29:50
at 55 miles per hour.
00:29:51
And it's not very much, although I couldn't find exact agreement.
00:29:54
I'd have to do the calculations on my own or have someone do it, but it's it's.
00:29:58
Most of the energy is just trying to get it up to speed.
00:30:00
And then once you're at speed...
00:30:02
that's what the electric part is really good at doing with all the torque.
00:30:06
Once you get to 55, you might need 50 horsepower, 100 at the most.
00:30:11
It's somewhere.
00:30:12
So so why not a 60 horsepower tiny little motor that you kick in?
00:30:17
Now, you're not going to be able to go 90 or 100, but hey, it's a simple motor.
00:30:22
kind of the interest we're seeing from a lot of automakers.
00:30:25
And this is already kind of happening in China, but what they call the EREV, where it's
essentially a large battery pack.
00:30:33
And it's kind what you're talking about, where it's like 90, maybe 95 % of the time, it's
pretty much an electric vehicle that is kind of towing around a small little gas
00:30:41
generator.
00:30:42
But when you're trying to do a long trip or towing, then the small kind of gas generator,
I mean, it operates more like a locomotive where it's essentially
00:30:51
electric motors doing all the movement, all that power, and then it's only the generator
will kind of kick in where necessary to either fill up the battery or kind of make that
00:31:03
electricity to power the motors once the battery is completely depleted.
00:31:08
I mean like even Scout Motors, that was one of the options for their new recently revealed
vehicles was kind of either a fully electric or this kind of battery range extender
00:31:18
version which
00:31:20
I think there's definitely a use case for it, especially if you like to do a lot of
overlanding, off-road trips into really remote places.
00:31:28
It's a pretty nice feature to have.
00:31:32
And I think there's definitely a market for it.
00:31:34
It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing again where people just as battery ranges and
stuff increase longer term.
00:31:39
But yeah, I think it's totally a good use case for people who tell a lot or go into really
remote places.
00:31:46
And then when they don't need to, and it's still a huge delta
00:31:50
as far as what is emissions and how much they're using gas and all this stuff and so it
kind of gets things kind of going the right direction anyway and I think for a lot of
00:32:00
these people use the the advantage too is then instead of it being kind of a plug-in
hybrid setup or can be kind of actually a little more complicated and you need a really
00:32:09
advanced sometimes
00:32:14
transmission and all these things.
00:32:16
It's still just electric motors.
00:32:17
All you're doing is electricity generation.
00:32:19
So you still actually have far less parts.
00:32:22
You have a much better, I think, driving experience and a much more linear acceleration.
00:32:26
All these things that are kind of great about UVs.
00:32:29
And then, yeah, you get the range.
00:32:30
And then if you're towing, you get all that torque and stuff.
00:32:33
And you fill up after 400 miles, which really isn't much different, if not even better,
than a lot of large pickups when you're towing.
00:32:42
Well, and I think you've hit it right.
00:32:44
This whole idea of the range extender and you mentioned the Scout.
00:32:47
And if you go way back, well, somewhat way back to the BMW i3, which was one of the first
electric cars out, that was a pretty much an electric car.
00:32:57
And then they'd say, there's a little range extender.
00:33:00
I think I forget the size of the range extender, but I think it was like 800 CC was a tiny
little motor.
00:33:05
Now that car getting back to composites was at all composite body, which
00:33:10
looking back is a little bit crazy.
00:33:12
I who's going to make an economy car out of the most expensive material in the world?
00:33:16
So that didn't make any sense.
00:33:17
I always like to say, because that was still in the days when we were working on composite
software, but I like to say that BMW learned what not to do with the i3 when making an
00:33:29
economy car.
00:33:29
I carbon fiber is good.
00:33:31
anyone asks me for a recommendation for an around town electric car, that's usually one of
my first recommendations is just to get one of those used.
00:33:38
They're pretty fun to actually drive.
00:33:41
Yeah, yeah, they're good price.
00:33:42
They're incredibly safe.
00:33:45
The amount of like...
00:33:48
ratings and what that thing can get into from an accident standpoint for being essentially
a small city car and be a much safer vehicle than even much larger vehicles.
00:33:57
I think it's an awesome vehicle and you're totally right.
00:34:00
It was one of the
00:34:02
It was one of the best examples of like R and D of a large automotive company going kind
of wild and thinking, this will eventually kind of pencil out for us.
00:34:11
And maybe it will, but, unlikely.
00:34:14
And it just seems like it was too.
00:34:15
The timing was definitely way off for them as a company to try and figure out how to put
that in there.
00:34:20
But, it's, it's just been, I think those are just fun, great little, they're funky looking
and they are like the epitome of a car designed by an engineer versus like something
00:34:31
that's like sexy.
00:34:32
and aesthetic but it it's a very impressive vehicle and if you don't really care about the
aesthetics and you just want a small little easy driving city car they are phenomenal.
00:34:42
Well, you you mentioned safety and the carbon fiber.
00:34:47
So carbon fiber and the carbon fiber monocoque got into Formula One in the 80s and in
early 80s.
00:34:53
By the end of the 80s, pretty much everyone had carbon fiber monocoques.
00:34:57
if you look, Formula One started in 1950.
00:35:00
So you got the 50s, the 60s, and then the 70s.
00:35:02
And throughout those decades, roughly each decade, about 15 people, 13 to 15 people
00:35:10
race car drivers actually lost their lives driving in Formula One.
00:35:14
And then in the early in the 70s to the early 80s were the years where the horsepower like
went crazy.
00:35:22
The cars back then had horsepower to weight ratios that are almost 50 to double what they
are now.
00:35:29
And as a result, safety became more and more important.
00:35:32
And the carbon fiber monocoque, if you've seen some of the crashes that they have in
Formula One.
00:35:38
and you see carbon fiber going all over the place and then just walk out.
00:35:43
And the reason for that is if you look at a crash structure, made out of steel or
aluminum.
00:35:47
It's basically a crash beam that would crumple.
00:35:51
And as it crumples, it absorbs energy to with carbon fiber.
00:35:56
You've got like in the monocoque, there's hundreds, know, dozens and dozens of layers, of
little pieces of carbon fiber that are in effect held together by epoxy.
00:36:07
And to tear those layers apart requires so much energy that by that all the energy gets
used up and the driver on the inside stays safe.
00:36:18
And that's why your i3, even though it's a little teeny car, is probably one of the safest
cars to drive in.
00:36:28
another thing that I guess eventually if we can figure out how to make carbon fiber a
little bit less expensive.
00:36:34
You would see it working its way down into more lower price consumer vehicles.
00:36:40
Well, and I think it was really interesting because it seemed like BMW was trying to do
that because then you start seeing like their, or not their Ivo, but like their five
00:36:48
series and seven series.
00:36:49
And they kind of mentioned, we did this thing and it's made out of carbon fiber and it
makes it stronger and it saves 20 pounds.
00:36:57
And it was just really interesting where it's like, clearly them as a company, we're
trying to figure out how to best leverage all this money that they've spent building a
00:37:06
really interesting, cool product, but how do they get it to a point where they can
00:37:09
scale it and now you've kind of just seen that even go away unfortunately and it would it
be it's a hard challenge to figure out to kind of find those weights critical weight
00:37:19
savings that justifies that price delta.
00:37:22
And they spent billions and billions and they had a factory.
00:37:26
had automation.
00:37:28
And the one thing with carbon fiber is the more complex curvature you have, more complex
shapes you have, the harder it is to make them without manual.
00:37:41
Formula one cars are made manually by hand.
00:37:43
There is no automation.
00:37:45
There is automation in aircraft like the Boeing 787 though is robotically made the entire,
but that's
00:37:51
the fuselage, but it's a nice flat.
00:37:53
It's a tube.
00:37:55
There is no tubes in Formula One or even in an i3.
00:38:00
There's cars just by their nature.
00:38:02
They're small, they're compact.
00:38:03
There's a lot of curvature there.
00:38:05
Look at the shape of the passenger cell of an i3 versus a Boeing 787.
00:38:10
And it's probably one of the greatest challenges ever to do that cost effectively.
00:38:15
but anyways, they gave it a try and
00:38:17
it at least shows the power of carbon fiber and again, some of the technology for
motorsports and how it can affect the commercial world.
00:38:28
for sure.
00:38:28
And I'm kind of curious, like, the lessons learned from that and what we're seeing now
with BMW kind of going into electrification, it does seem to be that they've taken a
00:38:41
pretty big step back from that.
00:38:42
They spent a lot of money, obviously.
00:38:45
And I'm...
00:38:47
It's interesting that to me so many cars now are so heavy, electric or not, or even
hybridized, how heavy a lot of cars have gotten.
00:38:59
Now with electrification coming out, we are starting to see EVs lighter than their gas.
00:39:06
I I forget what like the new BMW 3 starts at, but it's like, it weighs more than a model
3, which is a fully electric.
00:39:13
And there's little nuances, sure.
00:39:15
But like for what is traditionally been like the performance light, go fast vehicle in
that sedan space.
00:39:23
And you're seeing this not just with BMW, that's just when it kind of stands out.
00:39:26
I think got a lot of attention, but.
00:39:29
a pretty big step away from lightness.
00:39:32
yeah, some of that you could say is due to safety and other kind of regulations that have
kind of added complication.
00:39:38
But I'm curious to like, and almost kind of surprised that we haven't seen more speaking
like innovation in motorsport, like leveraging design that tries to minimize weight.
00:39:49
And of course, a big part of that is the battery causing that weight difference.
00:39:53
And we're starting to see improvements there, but like,
00:39:56
This is kind of the realm where I've been surprised with a lot of the legacy auto
manufacturers of not seeing more innovation around weight savings or like how to better
00:40:05
use this, these learnings to create more, I wouldn't say necessarily more competitive
product, but it'll definitely make the product more efficient and kind of give them that
00:40:18
less than you use less batteries and you get more range out of it.
00:40:22
Well, I think in racing, when it comes to the car body itself, there you can afford to use
carbon fiber, you're not so much worried about the labor and all that.
00:40:34
But a lot of these innovations that are more subtle, and I think weight reduction is one
of those, you don't really see weight reduction.
00:40:43
And let's go back to the i3.
00:40:45
When the i3 was coming out in the 2000s, the whole automotive industry said, my God,
everything is going to become carbon fiber.
00:40:52
We got to do carbon fiber.
00:40:53
then suddenly steel.
00:40:56
my God, steel.
00:40:56
That's we got to get rid of that.
00:40:58
That's for sure too heavy.
00:40:59
It's carbon fiber versus aluminum.
00:41:01
All right.
00:41:02
So now aluminum and carbon fiber are battling it out.
00:41:05
if when when BMW went from the I3 and eventually to the six series, I think it was in the
seventh series for a while, they're calling it carbon core, but really had only like four
00:41:18
or 5 % carbon fiber.
00:41:20
Yeah.
00:41:21
the 6 Series had no carbon fiber.
00:41:24
In the meantime, aluminum is getting better.
00:41:26
But then, and now if you look at the materials that are in cars, especially at the lower
end, steel has come back.
00:41:34
what they've done is, know, the steel business is a big business.
00:41:38
They're not just going to sit back.
00:41:40
And they went from just having mild steel to press hardened steel, to advanced high
strength steel, super advanced.
00:41:47
And some of those steels are more expensive.
00:41:49
but they start to approach the stiffness to weight and strength to weight ratio of
aluminum.
00:41:56
now, certainly in the lower cost cars, because steel is way more cost effective than
aluminum.
00:42:04
Forget carbon fiber, it's never going to be in a car under $30.
00:42:08
But steel is working its way back in.
00:42:12
But you don't notice that, I think.
00:42:14
And that's what makes possible some of these
00:42:19
That helps reduce the cost of an electric car because if you're going to put that big
heavy battery in there, first of all, the batteries are just heavy, so you got to move
00:42:27
them around, make it as light as possible.
00:42:29
But the other problem you have, you've taken that battery and you've put it at the bottom
of the car and now you got to still make that car stiff.
00:42:39
And so you've got to make that battery pack.
00:42:42
You can't have all that dead weight in there.
00:42:44
It has to contribute to the strength and stiffness of the car.
00:42:47
And you have to protect the battery at the same time.
00:42:50
So innovative designs that are more lightweight, but still give you strength and
stiffness.
00:42:55
And I think Tesla has had some patents in this area where they use aluminum casting as a
single piece for the whole car body.
00:43:03
And the battery pack is the integral part of it.
00:43:05
These are the things you never see when you buy a car, but they are happening.
00:43:10
They are happening.
00:43:11
There's always a drive for weight, but you have to do it in a cost effective.
00:43:15
And that's the real challenge.
00:43:19
Well, and I know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons and benefits for that, obviously, some
of its range, but also the lighter it gets.
00:43:25
And this is one of the things I know we want to talk about was just kind of the reductions
of energy being used.
00:43:32
And so like metrics for greenhouse gases and those being used in racing, we've kind of
mentioned a little bit about like hydrogen, but I know this was kind of a topic you wanted
00:43:41
to talk a little bit about.
00:43:43
I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts about this in general in this space and what you
kind of see.
00:43:49
as the future maybe in the next couple years and then maybe what the next decade looks
like because there's been a lot of talk of what some of these new technologies are and how
00:43:59
soon or how to what scale they can be implemented.
00:44:03
Well, just going back to some of the time I spent at Siemens when I was the head of their
motorsport strategy.
00:44:11
Siemens used to be big into sponsoring Formula One in the 2000 McLaren.
00:44:15
I think it was in the mid 2000s, but now completely gotten away from it because in part
because of sustainability and the bad rap that motorsports has gotten.
00:44:26
And motorsports has realized this and within the last five, six, seven years, they've
00:44:32
They've decided they have to do something about the reputation that motorsports has,
because like we spoke about earlier, that's really, really important for them to maintain
00:44:42
the Formula One or whatever any kind of racing series brand is.
00:44:47
so what you have to do is before you can improve your sustainability, have to understand
what your sustainability is.
00:44:55
What are the emissions that you have now?
00:44:58
Where are they coming from?
00:45:01
There's this group called Lab of Thought that did a comparison now.
00:45:05
Now the Formula One has been working on their Net Zero by 2030 program for a while now.
00:45:13
they've taken the measurements they've made of their missions and they compared it to
cycling.
00:45:19
So cycling would be Tour de France, Giro Italia, in Spain has a thing called Voleta.
00:45:24
And so they looked at the entire series of cycling versus a Formula One
00:45:31
annual racing series and all the events they do.
00:45:33
And if you looked at the emissions that they had, cycling was seven times greater in CO2
emissions than the entire Formula One series.
00:45:43
Now, if you look at the actual event itself, the cars, they are less than 1 % of the total
emissions that you get from the Formula One series.
00:45:53
But the car does emit more
00:45:56
greenhouse gases and a cyclist says.
00:45:58
So that's for sure.
00:45:59
But it's a teeny, teeny little slice.
00:46:01
The majority of that comes from and I think it's close to 75 % comes from moving people in
teams and broadcasting equipment, moving all the equipment that the cars need to do the
00:46:17
pit stops in the garages and media centers, whatever it is.
00:46:21
That's like 75 % of the emissions.
00:46:23
And if you look at cycling,
00:46:25
Sure, the bicycles are great, but they've got chase vehicles.
00:46:29
And they're moving these events all over the place.
00:46:33
And I think that's where you end up getting this increase in the 7x increase recycling.
00:46:40
Now, I think the most significant thing about all this is motor sports has to change their
reputation.
00:46:47
And the only way to do that is one, and the FIA, the Sanctioning Body is taking the lead
on this.
00:46:52
is they've gone in and they've done a very thorough job in measuring where they are right
now and what their emissions are.
00:46:59
When the lab thought that this comparison to cycling, only the Tour de France had actually
measured what their emissions were.
00:47:06
So they had to estimate what the other ones are.
00:47:09
And I think that shows the commitment that motorsports has in this area.
00:47:17
I think, for instance,
00:47:20
I mentioned 50 % electric drive and the new rules that come out in 26 for Formula One.
00:47:26
100 % renewable fuels, e-fuels.
00:47:29
Now, these will be carbon neutral fuels will be used by the year 2026.
00:47:34
So pretty much all their major series would be using that.
00:47:37
So a lot of big steps, I think, are being taken there.
00:47:41
And again, even thinking about things like extreme E that's running events in areas that
are challenged by climate change.
00:47:49
And if you do go to the events, actually there will have, and even on their broadcast,
they'll have climate scientists come in and give talks about what's going on in that area.
00:47:59
And so they're using the profits and really they're seeing it's very important to take the
resources they have and use it as a platform in this area of sustainability.
00:48:12
again, you got to sort of peel the onion away a little bit, right?
00:48:15
Look underneath to.
00:48:16
to see what's really going on.
00:48:18
But I think that motor sports is definitely stepping up there and now it's time for
cycling to do the same.
00:48:25
No, I think that's a great comparison.
00:48:28
You know, you're not the first one I've heard say that, that is like something that
probably a lot of people don't think about or fully realize that that would be the
00:48:37
difference in those two.
00:48:40
You did mention e-fuels, and I'm kind curious for your thoughts on that because there's
been a lot of talk about e-fuels in general for the past decade at least, maybe longer.
00:48:51
And I think recently it does seem like motorsports been kind of the one talking about it
again, and it seems
00:48:58
like it makes a lot of sense for that space to kind of keep going with the combustion side
of stuff, but it also seems like it's going to be way more expensive than traditional gas,
00:49:08
which I mean, bracing gas, even of the non-E fuel type is always usually more expensive
than this stuff.
00:49:15
And so I'm kind curious on your thoughts about
00:49:20
Do you see kind of e-fuels, and I think it's totally fine if they're really just in
motorsport and in the scheme of what motorsport pays for and deals with, your fuel price
00:49:29
is going up a little bit, really isn't that big of an expense compared to building the
actual car and all these other things.
00:49:34
But do you see e-fuels having much of a chance at scale beyond?
00:49:40
Because it seems like we hear that one is just the increased cost of what it takes to make
it and kind of how to do this ethically.
00:49:48
But then it just also sounds like
00:49:50
unlikely to ever be something that gets at scale to bring the cost down significantly
enough to be something beyond motorsport, which personally I totally get that and I'm okay
00:50:01
with it just being a motorsport thing.
00:50:02
I think it's kind of great to see that going and then embrace it at least in that way, but
I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts about that or anything you've heard or what that
00:50:10
might look like.
00:50:11
I think you raise a good point.
00:50:14
Well, it's hard to predict the future.
00:50:17
what's going to be in 10 or 15 years?
00:50:19
mean, I think the first Formula One race in 1950 had drum brakes, which fade.
00:50:26
It's all sorts of...
00:50:27
And within a year or two, this is the 50s.
00:50:30
Now they had disc brakes.
00:50:31
who needs those in cars?
00:50:33
And they're expensive.
00:50:34
I mean, they're hard to make.
00:50:36
And next thing you know, they're used because the cost came down when you're...
00:50:40
when you're producing in mass, and they are safer, especially in wet conditions and things
like that.
00:50:46
So e-fuels, so, well, first of you gotta look at them in two ways.
00:50:52
One is, what are they really doing in terms of carbon emissions?
00:50:55
And I think also the cost.
00:50:58
And Porsche built a plant in Chile, and what they did was, have to, first you gotta create
hydrogen, and you do that with electrolysis.
00:51:09
Electrolysis is not cheap when it comes to the amount of electricity it needs to take all
that hydrogen out of the water.
00:51:16
And so they put a bunch of wind turbines on the mountains of Chile and they were able to
make green electrolysis, I guess you could call it, that then was combined with CO2 that
00:51:28
was scrubbed out of the atmosphere.
00:51:30
And now you've got a carbon neutral fuel.
00:51:32
I think there might have been methanol in the middle of the process, but eventually you
had a carbon
00:51:37
neutral fuel.
00:51:38
And in fact, at that point, it's carbon positive.
00:51:40
You take in the CO2 out.
00:51:42
Then what Porsche wanted to do and what they're doing is then they'll take this fuel and
then if they have these things called Porsche Experience Centers, where for those that can
00:51:51
afford it can go drive a very expensive Porsche.
00:51:54
And now you can do that and actually be carbon neutral because you've taken carbon out of
the air in Chile and you're probably redepositing it at Silverstone.
00:52:04
in the UK or something like that, it truly is carbon neutral, but it's very, very
expensive.
00:52:12
Right.
00:52:13
Well, and I think even you actually did a really good job of describing the process, but I
think anyone listening to that process can kind of understand that there's so many steps
00:52:22
to get through that it's like, how can you.
00:52:26
In what world could you do that in a cost effective way?
00:52:31
But I think it is also really cool and impressive that obviously that's such a big thing
at Porsche and they are an innovator in a lot of ways.
00:52:38
And I think it's really cool to see them go that far along the process to really try and
make it work.
00:52:44
they have, but yeah, as we're kinda talking about, to do that at scale and the price, I
don't know if that makes sense, but I think there's argument to be made.
00:52:55
that it's really cool to see that.
00:52:57
And like I said, when you start getting into that realm of motorsport, whether it be at
scale for like entertainment, like a Formula One or for personal gas price, okay, it went
00:53:09
up a little bit in the scheme of like having gone through race tires and all this stuff.
00:53:15
It's not that big of a Delta of what you're spending anyway, that if we see more and more
of
00:53:23
kind of private and large scale race and go that way.
00:53:26
I don't think it's going to be as heartfelt as like maybe the average race and going to
the pump.
00:53:33
And I think that's kind of cool to see that that is an option.
00:53:37
for people to stay in the space.
00:53:38
think there will be, I know it's kind of, it seems premature to use it as an antidote, but
a lot of people compare like what the future of motor sport might be would be like to
00:53:48
horse racing, where it's like, yeah, people still have horses, but it's a very expensive,
very small niche endeavor.
00:53:53
I don't know if it's going to be that small, at least not anytime soon, but it is kind of
a way to kind of fill that gap and also make it, I think, check a lot of the boxes that
00:54:04
people that have been concerned about the space have can now
00:54:07
say that yeah in that example perfectly that it is a actually not carbon carbon negative I
guess with everything that's being done yeah yeah
00:54:19
you raise again, another good point, which, which they, there's a saying in motor sports
is if you want to make a million, then start with two, and then you'll end up with one.
00:54:30
nobody, very few people that are engaged in motor sports.
00:54:33
I mean, we see Formula One and IndyCar and NASCAR, and those people, many of them, not all
of them are making money.
00:54:41
But there's, that's just a tiny, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
00:54:44
There's so many people that just,
00:54:45
race for fun or race semi-professionally and they are spending a lot, a lot of money to
just enjoy, enjoy a sport.
00:54:53
And that's like horse racing, right?
00:54:54
If you want to win the Kentucky Derby, you're, spending a lot of money getting those
horses to where they can do that.
00:54:59
And the same goes for a race car.
00:55:00
But in the end, which has really been somewhat of a theme of what we've been talking about
here.
00:55:06
It's motivated Porsche with their high speed experience centers to at least look at
e-fuels.
00:55:15
Now, I think at a minimum, it jump starts us towards knowing if e-fuels will ever, if
they're ever going to make it or not.
00:55:23
Just like BMW learned what not to do on the i3 when it comes to making an all composite
fighter plane, you know, commuter car, right?
00:55:33
With the same construction as a fighter plane.
00:55:35
I think you'll probably start to learn, you know what?
00:55:38
It's never going to go under $50 a gallon or 25 or whatever the number is now, or maybe it
will.
00:55:44
than I thought it would be I'd have to look it up again But I while you were talking about
I did Google it quickly and it it went live in 2022 and I I don't remember the Specific
00:55:55
per gallon price, but I believe it's like eight dollars a gallon Which I could be wrong.
00:56:01
I could be wrong, but I think that's what I'd heard last I was trying to confirm that but
even at eight dollars a gallon.
00:56:07
It's not cheap, but like
00:56:09
Well, what's gas in California?
00:56:11
a set of Michelin tires and all these other things, it's like, and yeah, like you go to a
lot of racetracks now that have fees and all this stuff and good or bad, it's just like
00:56:21
everything else, it's gotten more expensive, but it's not like buying uranium expensive.
00:56:27
It's not like a hundred bucks a gallon, but I, and maybe I'm incorrect, but I believe last
I heard it was like eight to $10 a gallon, is still crazy, but.
00:56:37
for a lot of things isn't that far.
00:56:38
mean, like you can go buy gas for boats at a lot of places and they'll charge you like six
bucks a gallon just because they're the only place you can buy the gas from.
00:56:50
And same with like aviation gas.
00:56:53
Porsche E fuel costs.
00:56:55
Trying to see.
00:56:56
I thought it was more than that.
00:56:58
You can edit some of this out,
00:57:03
You're correct.
00:57:03
Okay, so I did find this.
00:57:05
This looks...
00:57:06
liter.
00:57:08
Well, this looks like a pretty credible source and I'll try and get a link to it in
today's show notes, but it says, Persia will first use eFuelz in special products,
00:57:16
including, and this was, think, from last year.
00:57:19
It currently costs $45 per gallon to make, and this was from June 20th of 2023, but it is
projected to cost less than $8 per gallon by 2026.
00:57:32
So, not a steal, but yeah, it's coming down.
00:57:36
gallon is not bad, right?
00:57:38
Gas is six, what is it, five or six dollars in California?
00:57:42
Yeah, yeah, who knows maybe e-fuels in California would be 10 bucks, but yeah.
00:57:49
to eight?
00:57:49
You don't do that overnight.
00:57:51
for sure, for sure.
00:57:52
And a lot of that is scale, but like I said, is that what everyone at the pump can afford?
00:57:57
Probably not, but it makes it being a pretty,
00:58:00
realistic option for a lot of tracks to even offer if they can do it to that level, just
because like I said, aviation gas or even gas you get for boats isn't far off that.
00:58:13
It's just that they charge a premium because they have it in such supply or they're the
only places you can get it from.
00:58:20
So it's like if it's around eight to 10 bucks longer term, I think it definitely doesn't.
00:58:26
by no means is like a deal breaker for the sport or people who want, like you said, want
to do it personally or professionally.
00:58:32
Well, you know, one thing to think about is to say, OK, I'll give you two challenges.
00:58:37
You pick one and you have to invest in it.
00:58:39
Challenge one, bring the price from eight dollars down to four.
00:58:43
I'll give you ten years or two.
00:58:46
Build an infrastructure to charge every electric car in the entire world in ten years.
00:58:53
Now, because you got your infrastructure already for the e-fields.
00:58:57
If you put it that way, that's an interesting proposition.
00:59:03
Yeah, I think it is kind of, there's interesting points to both those sides because you
can kind of say the thing about electric cars is like, well, you can charge it in a 120
00:59:11
volt outlet today.
00:59:13
Is that realistic and can you do that scale?
00:59:16
Probably not.
00:59:17
But it's not to the same scale like you have to have DC fast chargers like you do gas.
00:59:22
But you're right that it is still something that has to be done.
00:59:25
Even if you decide you just want to put in more level two chargers, that's still a large
infrastructure change.
00:59:32
I guess what's really interesting is the difference is do you invest in the
00:59:38
fuel source or do you invest in the infrastructure to support the fuel source?
00:59:42
So electricity we kind of have and we can generate more-ish.
00:59:46
It's just like actually getting it into the car through whether that be at home or in your
own, the charging station itself.
00:59:55
Whereas with this, we have the fueling infrastructure.
00:59:58
We've had a century really to build that out.
01:00:00
We just now have to make this new crazy new clean fuel, which we now at least have a model
of how to do it.
01:00:07
It's how do we do it larger?
01:00:11
so really, it's just a scale problem for either that just where that investment goes.
01:00:16
And figuring it out is the tricky part because it's not black and white.
01:00:24
I mean, you don't have to say, we're just doing e-fuels or we're just going to have this
infrastructure and put our money there.
01:00:32
Maybe it's a combination of the two.
01:00:34
Wow.
01:00:35
If we invested X amount, we'll take the 100%.
01:00:38
We're going to put an infrastructure and give 20 % to e-fuels.
01:00:41
That'll hold us over till 2035.
01:00:44
And by then we'll have the infrastructure there and then it'll be cheaper to go that way.
01:00:48
But I think in our society now, there tends to be this black and white type of thing and
it's hard to do things in between.
01:00:57
you're, no, you're right.
01:00:58
And doing a collective mixed approach versus one or the other, you're totally right.
01:01:04
And I think it's been fascinating because even to see the one approach, you don't have to
go too far, unfortunately, to see like, there's been a lot of money spent and then what's
01:01:14
kind of come out on the other side.
01:01:17
has kind of been hit or miss depending on where that source of money is coming from.
01:01:21
But I think will that change for sure?
01:01:24
It's just a really fascinating, they're both technologies we more or less had in theory
for over a century.
01:01:32
One's electric and motors and the other's gas and combustion engines are over a century
old both.
01:01:38
It's just at what evolutions on the...
01:01:43
fueling infrastructure side are we on that have had that century of focus and what needs
to change?
01:01:49
And I do agree with you.
01:01:50
don't think, to me it seems likely long-term that the vast majority will go electric, but
I also don't think, I think it's also really silly to a lot of people like, we don't need
01:02:01
oil and gas.
01:02:01
I was like, well, yeah, you do.
01:02:04
there's the plastics put in these cars are oil and gas.
01:02:08
The oil that's in the motor itself, it's going to change to what scale and where these
products are coming from, but it doesn't mean that you're going to get rid of it
01:02:18
completely.
01:02:19
And there's still going to be a place for aviation fuel.
01:02:22
There's still going to be a place for...
01:02:25
jet fuel and now it looks like e-fuels and I really don't think it's a one or the other.
01:02:31
I think you have to be smart at where you're putting the focus and I think there is a
place for hydrogen in all of this but I think for a lot of light duty stuff it seems
01:02:40
pretty clear that will go electric and that it's kind of these other use cases TBD but
there's good arguments for these other fuel sources and technology is powering them.
01:02:52
Well, shipping, think, is a great example because in shipping, if you were going to make
an electric cargo ship, just think of how much cargo is going to become those batteries
01:03:03
that you're hauling around.
01:03:04
So theirs were an e-fuel would be a much better application than a car in the street.
01:03:09
a totally from like a carbon like from a mission standpoint, shipping is terrible.
01:03:14
There's no argument there.
01:03:17
I think there's an argument maybe to be made that there's some sort of hybrid solution and
then you've got these ideas that people are trying to go back to being wind powered in
01:03:24
sales.
01:03:25
I don't know if that's going to happen.
01:03:27
I think it's an ambitious idea.
01:03:29
But no, you're totally right where it's like, well, if we go to a cleaner fuel source
today, we see a pretty immediate impact.
01:03:36
And if there's battery technology or hybrid or whatever technology down the road, great.
01:03:41
But there's, yeah, a fuel source that's being so heavily dependent on that's
01:03:47
having such a large outsized impact in that one industry, why not do that?
01:03:53
And I think that's actually for all the talk green hydrogen gets, like heavy industry
makes a lot of sense for it to go like manufacturing and like steel and aluminum smelters.
01:04:03
That I could see going hydrogen powered just because you have these large facilities that
can have large areas for storing hydrogen and then use it in a effective way.
01:04:14
I don't think it's going to be in cars.
01:04:15
I don't even know if it's going to be in trucks, but like heavy industry, yeah, I'd
usually makes a lot of E fuels in racing and shipping.
01:04:23
I could see that because they are carbon intensive, but also effective in just getting the
stuff there.
01:04:29
It's like, how do you change what the out product is?
01:04:33
And then electrification for light duty, unless you're towing and you're towing more than
a couple hundred miles, especially if you're like a small city or these other things,
01:04:42
there's a lot of...
01:04:43
truck things that can be done within cities that the price of the products need to come
down.
01:04:48
But long term, I don't see why they wouldn't go electric.
01:04:52
Well, you know, I think one way to look at this is leaving if is it hydrogen or is it an
e-fuel or is it a battery or some combination of those that creates the power?
01:05:05
You have to deliver the power to the road, to the tires that are moving the thing forward.
01:05:10
And that's where I think electric drive is far superior.
01:05:14
And if it weren't for the fact that electric motors have gotten more efficient, they've
gotten smaller, the power to weight ratio on those has gone on way up.
01:05:22
You've got, it's possible with four wheel motors that you can break, you can do traction
control, you can accelerate the car.
01:05:29
So a computer and four wheel motors.
01:05:32
Now, where's the power coming from?
01:05:34
Well, maybe it's coming from a pure battery pack that you charge, or maybe it's got that
range extender on, or maybe it's a little internal combustion engine that's running on an
01:05:44
e-fuel.
01:05:45
mean, hydrogen is a lot of car, it's inevitable.
01:05:48
It's going to cars are going to be electric drive.
01:05:50
I mean, it's so sweet.
01:05:52
I mentioned my wife has that Tesla.
01:05:54
Hey, no oil changes.
01:05:56
You know, the brake pads are probably going to last longer than the rest of the car.
01:06:01
You don't use the brakes.
01:06:03
yeah, it's no brake pads and like.
01:06:05
That is one of the biggest reasons I loved going to electric was just no oil changes and I
know that sounds like a silly thing but as someone who drives a lot and I've done my own
01:06:15
oil changes that I enjoy it but some of the places I lived it wasn't really easy to do
that and then going to spend 80 to even 100 bucks to get oil change I was like okay now
01:06:24
this really sucks I'm wasting time to go somewhere to get this done I'm spending so much
money to have someone else do something that's fairly simple that yeah and I think you're
01:06:34
totally right with like the evil
01:06:35
rev scenario that if you're towing or like I said anything light duty I just don't see how
it doesn't go to look it's electrified and then maybe there's a range extender if it's a
01:06:45
case that needs towing or something but just the torque and I think it's one thing to talk
about like motorsport and performance vehicles but when you look at the vast majority of
01:06:58
people they just need a thing that gets them from point A to point B and
01:07:03
something, electric car seems like a sports car to them even if it's a large heavy thing
just because of the power delivery and it being just continuous and stuff having kind of
01:07:13
the clunky there.
01:07:15
I think that's been my biggest issue with so many plug-in or hybrids and let alone plug-in
hybrids.
01:07:19
They drive terrible and it's not like maybe there's like some of the higher like the Volvo
and the Mercedes ones you're talking about.
01:07:28
They handle fine but it's just like the gear like having like nine gears and it takes four
01:07:33
years just to get to 50.
01:07:35
It's that kind of thing that I think most people when they experience just that kind of
linear speed they don't really know the difference and it feels it's a much better
01:07:44
experience to them.
01:07:45
And I think sooner or later a lot of these light duty things will just go that way just
because that's what people get used to and kind of expect it to feel like.
01:07:54
In the end, I think Stellantis announced this recently, that they're going to be testing,
I think, a limited-sized fleet with their solid-state batteries.
01:08:06
And so they say 600-mile range.
01:08:11
Now, it's not going to be commercially available, but they are testing it on the street.
01:08:17
So does that mean in five years you're going be able to have a solid-state battery?
01:08:21
that will get you to 600 or in 10 years, gets you to a thousand, charge your, or 2000 and
you charge your car four times a year or something.
01:08:30
don't know.
01:08:32
I'd worked in the solar industry in the mid to early 2000s.
01:08:38
And the big word then was nanotechnology.
01:08:40
And I feel like in the EV space, especially with batteries, that is now the buzzword.
01:08:48
It's like, just solid state.
01:08:50
That's this magic amorphous thing that'll solve everything.
01:08:56
I think it has a place to play, I think realistically what's going to happen is we're not
going to get cars with 800 mile batteries.
01:09:03
We're going to get the same cars with much smaller batteries that go 300 to 400 miles that
last longer and charge faster, even though I think everyone has this idea in their mind.
01:09:12
It's like, I'm going to go 2 miles.
01:09:15
in the end, right or wrong, the manufacturers see this as a way to get less batteries into
more cars versus putting a bunch of batteries into a few cars.
01:09:24
I mean, I think there may be like some high end, it wouldn't surprise me if like the high
end RAM TRX or something.
01:09:30
Yeah, maybe it has like a 600 mile range.
01:09:33
Yeah.
01:09:35
Right.
01:09:35
That's true too.
01:09:36
That's, that's, that's a good point.
01:09:37
Yeah.
01:09:37
That kind of starts and then kind of works down.
01:09:40
state, salt water, battery, sulfur batteries.
01:09:43
even read about a battery that's made from lobster shells, crustacean batteries.
01:09:48
So, I I think the point is everyone's trying to figure out the super duper battery.
01:09:54
Hey, is it going to be solid state or there's that the thing is there's so much investment
being put in there because we know we need batteries and some of them.
01:10:01
We're going to be applicable for that big factory that's making steel.
01:10:04
And those might be for our home.
01:10:06
And some can go in cars and it'll make that electric drive.
01:10:10
The electric drive is the way to go.
01:10:12
I mean, it's just so simple.
01:10:14
It'll put all the car maintenance people out of business.
01:10:17
You can't go from, you know, 10 parts to four or five, right?
01:10:21
And on the drive train and not make it more reliable.
01:10:26
Exactly and I just want to say thank you.
01:10:28
I I realize we've kind of gone over time It seems like we could probably keep talking
about just motor sports in general let alone the electrification of it So I for anyone
01:10:37
that's kind of listening to today's episode What's the best way to get a hold of you or
kind of learn more about the future cars podcast and the other things you're working on
01:10:44
right now?
01:10:45
The best way would be on LinkedIn.
01:10:48
We'll have links to that and all of your content in today's show notes, but Ed, thanks
again for coming on and definitely want to talk to you soon.
01:10:55
And I know with just how quickly electrification is happening, especially in motorsport
and some of these cool things.
01:11:02
mean, we didn't even get to talk about like, speaking of hybrids, I think the coolest
hybrid that's come out all year is the new Porsche.
01:11:08
Like you leveraging it to kind of get rid of turbo lag, I think is a great example of what
you can kind of do with it.
01:11:13
But that's a whole nother thing.
01:11:14
We didn't even get to that.
01:11:16
So, Ed, thank you so much for coming on today.
01:11:18
I'm looking forward to speaking with you again soon.
01:11:20
Yeah, we'll have to do the performance EV as the next one.
01:11:24
think we could talk for hours and hours on that one, I'm sure.
01:11:28
Yeah, thanks so much Ed.
01:11:29
Thank you, Chase.
01:11:30
Enjoyed it.
01:11:36
Thanks for tuning into this episode of grid connections.
01:11:38
We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Ed Bernadon on the future of motorsports,
electric vehicles, and sustainable technology.
01:11:45
Ed's insights into how motorsports are paving the way for innovation in electric vehicles,
battery tech, and sustainable fuels offer a powerful look at what's next for the industry
01:11:53
and for all of us as consumers.
01:11:55
If you found this conversation as fascinating as we did, please share with someone who
would enjoy it too.
01:12:00
And if you have a moment, leave us a pause review on our podcast page.
01:12:04
Your feedback helps us bring more conversations like this to an even larger audience.
01:12:09
Thanks for listening and until next week, this is a great connections podcast signing off.
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