[00:00:04] In this episode we speak with Joe Britton. He's the Executive Director of the Zero Emission Transportation Association or ZEDA They're working to make all new cars in the US be electric by the year 2030
[00:00:16] We discuss everything from the current automotive landscape from impacts due to COVID along with the current Biden administration and beyond He shares how his team is working to make ZEDA's vision a reality by the end of this decade
[00:00:29] Joe, thanks for joining us today. Yeah, appreciate you having me and I'm always thrilled to talk about electrification in the transportation sector Well, I think what you're working on is awesome because it's such a It's been a topic that people have been talking about for so long
[00:00:45] And it just seems like within the last 12 months 12 to 18 months that there's finally getting traction in this area You're seeing it globally with what's going on in China and Europe with a lot of these new kind of laws and kind of
[00:00:58] mandates for where they're trying to move the industry and It's really great to see what you're doing here domestically, and I would love to just for you to give a quick Overview for those that might not be familiar with your work and what you're trying to accomplish today
[00:01:13] Yeah, so the zero emission transportation association We started about a year ago A lot of that was kind of getting it up and running and and recruiting folks to be on board
[00:01:24] But there's been a lot of excitement. I think like you mentioned the timing has been right, but you know We're now at 53 companies. It's it's folks in the you know the OEM so the Lucid Faraday, Lormstown, Rivian, Tesla
[00:01:38] We've got battery folks like Panasonic and some recycling companies all the you know major charging Companies in the country and then some material supply folks of lithium and cobalt and copper which are a key piece of obviously advanced batteries
[00:01:51] And then a host of utilities and so we've come together To support a pretty ambitious goal Which is that every vehicle sold by 2030 ought to be an EV and that's you know a lot of times when you talk about EVs people think about the light duty side
[00:02:05] But we actually think all eight classes of vehicles ought to go electric And that's an aspiration that is just garnered a lot of I think support and attention I think the new administration plays into that, but you know, you know
[00:02:18] We think about our goals for 2050 and wanting to be You know net zero not only in the power sector But in the transportation and and throughout our economy in order to get there if you think about it You've got to get to nearly every vehicle sold by 2030 maybe 2031 2032
[00:02:37] Otherwise, you're gonna have people pulling up to the gas station in 2051 and 2052 and we know at least from a Climate standpoint we can't be there and in the interim all the other benefits than electric vehicle provides which is you know fuel and maintenance savings
[00:02:52] You know lower a mobile source pollution for frontline communities It's a real public health crisis And then if you think about the domestic manufacturing and the innovation and you know in the job creation potential
[00:03:06] The electric vehicle again through all eight classes can really be an answer to a lot of you know Challenging questions that we face right now, which is why we're excited to advocate for it So let's take a quick step back in
[00:03:20] You're doing this awesome work at Zeta. It's really making waves everywhere And a lot of people kind of talking about the initiative Can we take a step back and learn a little bit about how you started this and kind of what you've been leading up to?
[00:03:34] Zeta and your background in general Joe. Yeah so, yeah, I started in the US Senate in 2003 and Didn't leave for nearly 16 years I did a brief stint with Secretary Vilsack where I managed the Forest Service the natural resource conservation service And then the farm service agency for Vilsack
[00:03:54] But otherwise, you know the rest of my adult life I like to tell people I walked through the doors of the heart Senate office building and Worked for three great members. I my home state senator was Ben Nelson Then worked for Mark Udall from Colorado
[00:04:09] His wife Maggie Fox was actually Al Gore's chief of staff for the climate reality project and then You know I set a stint with Secretary Vilsack who's now back at USTA the Department of Agriculture
[00:04:23] And I was chief of staff for Martin Heinrich from New Mexico for the last four and a half years and You know really spent the last decade doing climate and conservation work and the transportation sector to me is really really exciting
[00:04:36] Because one it's the number one emitter of carbon emissions In the in our economy and two if you if you think about kind of the investments and the standards that were Seeking to make the transportation sector is the biggest opportunity to decarbonize
[00:04:52] And so, you know again, you can come at this stuff from a lot of different ways I happened to you know coming up from a political entry point, but it's just as important for local communities It's just as important for consumers. I just You know providentially found myself
[00:05:09] Leaving public service and finding this really opportune time to you know Have the support of such a great collection of folks that are driving the electrification movement I'm great
[00:05:19] And just to kind of go a little more in-depth when you go and look at kind of what Zeta stands for there's quite a Few different policy pillars of how you're looking to kind of make these impacts on the public level
[00:05:31] Can you share what a few of those are and what you're working on today around those pillars? Well, there's 34 of them and I'll just spend the next 45 minutes going through those if that's okay We actually you know the reason that we have such a diverse
[00:05:46] You know platform is we want to make room for a lot of members of Congress to be bought in and have Opportunities to lead on this so there's a host of recommendations that we're making that we think really drive the The transportation electrification kind of movement forward
[00:06:01] But the big drivers really are the consumer incentives on the light duty and then a medium and heavy duty side And so what that looks like is a kind of a reformed 30d tax incentive Which is the consumer incentive right now So it's the seventy five hundred dollar
[00:06:16] Tax credit that you get if you purchase an electric vehicle right now both GM and Tesla are capped out It's creating kind of a weird in maybe perverse incentive Which is that we're telling Americans that if they buy a domestically made car
[00:06:30] They don't get the credit, but if they buy an import they do just because of the way the caps are set So we want to get rid of that cap
[00:06:38] We think there ought to be and there's been good progress in both the house and the Senate on some secondary market And even vehicle exchange incentives to again drive adoption in the light-duty space in the medium and heavy duty side
[00:06:49] We're advocating for a 30% investment tax credit and that's not for the manufacturer. That's for the off-taker So whether that's a utility whether it's FedEx it could be a small municipal fleet They get a 30% tax credit for the purchase of a medium or heavy duty EV
[00:07:04] The other thing that we do is there's a 12% excise tax Which is essentially a sales tax that the federal government levies on medium and heavy-duty vehicles And so we also think that you know given the public interest of zero emissions
[00:07:18] We ought to suspend that 12% federal excise tax for medium and heavy-duty vehicles as well And then what you need so that's what you know drives the vehicles drives adoption You obviously need to build out them the the charging infrastructure to get there
[00:07:30] So we're advocating for big federal investments in charging infrastructure And you know many folks are going to charge at home so 70 to 80 percent in the light-duty space It's gonna be a single family home with a level one or level two charger
[00:07:43] But those other use cases are what we really want the federal government invested in and that's transportation corridors On-street parking, mini parking, multi unit housing, some fleet applications
[00:07:55] And so that's where the federal government can provide a lot of leadership and resources to help close the gap on charging And then the final piece that I'll be with is that you know we really believe the EPA
[00:08:07] Needs to and it's going to be pursuing strong greenhouse gas and fuel economy standards And so if you look back the previous administration had unraveled many of the fuel economy standards performance and emissions Based that was driving electrification and it's important because it's a market signal
[00:08:25] So you need to have that strong I think standard set by the government to make clear to both the capital markets and And to those that are manufacturing and driving and creating new
[00:08:37] Opportunities for UV is that this is something we're gonna do and fully transition in the next 10 or 15 years Not the next 40 or 50 years That's great. I think what's really great about your organization is you kind of hit the space hard
[00:08:51] It's not just having obviously the big names like Rivian and Tesla and Lucid as a part of this It's also kind of going across the whole supply chain when you go to the website. You can see it's not just the companies It's all are the EV manufacturers
[00:09:05] It's also the infrastructure and it goes even further down to like mining and other materials who are part of this whole conversation With this kind of full frontal approach What what do you see as
[00:09:21] When in your conversations, where do you see in these supply chains that people might have like the most? Just maybe misinformed or what what still kind of stands out is some of the kind of the
[00:09:34] Maybe legacy rumors and stuff like that. Sure in these conversations. You're starting to see big shifts In areas that having this full kind of supply chain approach with Zeta can really help address those Front-on Well, there's there's a few I mean, you know people talk about range anxiety
[00:09:52] I think most of the time it's poor about change anxiety, you know people are just getting used to something that is new We are going to I think see as as automobiles in the in the company advanced vehicle space, you know grow to You know a lower
[00:10:10] You know dollar amount per kilowatts right now you think about on the cost side for a battery once you get to about a hundred dollars per Kilowatt hour for a battery That's a basically a price parity with an internal combustion engine vehicle
[00:10:23] So we're blowing right through that in the next two or three years It's going to be 75 or $60 per kilowatt hour and so Price alone, we will be out competing internal combustion engine vehicles
[00:10:34] And as we do that, you know what that means is that you also the range is going to be increasing You obviously are you know consumers are price sensitive and so you don't want to have a battery pack
[00:10:45] You know that the prices consumers out of the vehicle. So as that cost per kilowatt hour goes down So does the potential? You know ability to grow the battery size in an efficient way and to have ranges that are four to five hundred miles
[00:10:58] So if you think about your average, you know, sedan if you're going to fill up with a 16 to 18 gallon tank, you know You're going to be coming in at you know 390 to 420 range and we're gonna be exceeding that with many
[00:11:11] Electric vehicles in the in the future. And so if you combine both a lower price point on the upfront costs lower fuel service and maintenance costs and the range that exceeds that of an internal combustion engine vehicle for the consumer
[00:11:25] It's just going to make enormous sense both from an initial cost standpoint within the total cost of ownership So I think that's really going to change, you know the culture around electrification and the other thing I don't know if you you know
[00:11:39] You know driven many of these certainly the newer models the torque and the performance on these things is nowhere You know, they just out compete an internal combustion engine in a host of ways And so, you know, they're funner to drive. It's a better experience
[00:11:53] And the technology on these things just are far superior to an internal combustion engine vehicle With a lot of what is it is working on and even this conversation we've already had today a big kind of theme is around Domestic manufacturing and production
[00:12:11] Can you share some of the areas where you're just getting a lot of traction and kind of the interest to really build upon what Zed is doing? Yes, I mean a full, you know pillar of our plan is encouraging domestic manufacturing
[00:12:24] And I think you know our view is that we have to go forward with strong incentives to build a capacity here for not only the vehicle But the components and the materials that we need for advanced matters
[00:12:35] And so if you think about, you know, the full ecosystem, we have the capability to do it here It's just a matter of building it out. I think a couple examples that are really unique If you look at the Rivian
[00:12:47] Plant it is a former Mitsubishi plant internal combustion engine plant that was shuttered so Rivians taking it over They've invested hundreds of millions of dollars are going to employ thousands of people. So that's a you know, a true success story Lordstown in Lordstown, Ohio is the same story
[00:13:03] It was a shuttered Chevy cruise plant that they took over they're putting in an enormous amount of investment fusing into the ad economy and creating jobs And you know, those are going to be jobs that are here to stay their good paying jobs
[00:13:16] And I think that's you know, and it's in some ways a turnaround That's that's how it's a community that was left behind that is now going to be re-employing those very same individuals in this advanced vehicle space
[00:13:28] The other thing I think you know, you're implying on the domestic side is materials And so we actually have in the Carolinas and in Nevada a host of lithium plays and so that's an important part of the future We also have the ability
[00:13:45] You know produce some cobalt there's copper production here So those are also domestic manufacturing jobs in many of them are in kind of your former carbon community that you know, I think as we make a transition to a
[00:13:59] Cleaner and net zero economy those former carbon communities are especially important to you know Ensure that we're creating additional or supplemental economic development And we can go and do that as we think about the material supply side of an electric vehicle
[00:14:14] You know, I love the term you used earlier change anxiety so to kind of play on the inverse of what you discussed Can you share some of the
[00:14:22] Maybe some of the road bumps you're running into but are able to kind of bring people along or what are some of the challenges that? Zeta is seeing and pushback maybe from the traditional combustion engine and fossil fuel industries
[00:14:35] Well, I mean so there's you know, there's a direct assault that's occurring right now The you know the American Petroleum Institute and the petroleum marketers association They've created a group called the transportation fairness alliance It's like it is a totally DC named outfit in front group
[00:14:54] But you know their goal is to go and you know slander EVs and utilities and charging companies And so, you know, we have to be out there on the playing field and fight back against some of the false narratives and kind
[00:15:05] Of poll test of talking points that are out there and you know breaking through that It's it's a little easier when you're on the right side of the issue But being under resourced and outgun certainly makes it a challenge
[00:15:17] but the more that we can go out there and actually tell the story of You know, whether it's the consumer benefits the public health benefits the decarbonization the job creation the American
[00:15:27] Competitiveness these are all things that are part of the future and are part of the transition that we're gonna make But you know, it's about going in engaging with those communities and making sure that they see electric vehicles as
[00:15:38] Right for them and their family and and for them, you know the the local economy Yeah, I think those are all point great points to call out and for people listening to this What recommendations do you have to either get involved with Zeta?
[00:15:53] Or do you think just on the kind of like in a grassroots way that they can make the biggest impact to help with some of these current issues? Well, certainly we would invite them to go to Zeta 2030 org and sign up for our newsletter
[00:16:07] We're gonna be increasingly relying on kind of our community to help with advocacy. So not only do we Represent or made up of you know folks in the sector
[00:16:16] But we're made up of a real army of people that are advocates for electric vehicles and we partner with some of our Colleagues whether that's EV hybrid noir who represents the black and brown EV owners and operators. You've got plug-in America
[00:16:30] You've got a host of other groups that we're constantly engaging with and strategizing on how to advance Electrification and so, you know if folks are interested we would gladly have them enlist and be part of the advocacy campaign
[00:16:43] Great and now now that we've kind of built out a good base knowledge of the background around Zeta And some of the stuff you're working on right now. I think one of the things a few of the things We really got to talk about is the current landscape
[00:16:55] So with where your focus is Can you share what you're seeing just kind of in DC around the new administration and kind of just the Public kind of fears of influence and what kind of traction you're getting and what you're most excited about moving forward
[00:17:13] Yeah, I'm anything to like, you know the elephant in the room is is there gonna be a you know big build back better Initiative to address, you know infrastructure jobs Climate change etc. So I think that's kind of the open question and you know even this week
[00:17:29] They're they're finishing up important COVID relief I think our hope is that there's a quick pivot and turn to infrastructure And clean energy jobs and certainly electrification That's you know, I think that's the thing that everything else in this space and everything else in DC
[00:17:46] revolves around that open question so I think the administration has come in they've made some very Strong and bold early moves. They've committed to 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations. Like I said, I know that EPA and the
[00:18:02] And it's a national highway transportation safety administration are going to be pursuing jointly fuel economy and greenhouse gas standards And so they're making progress, you know, I think there's an open question as to whether
[00:18:15] You know, there's going to be the will in Congress to I think you know Resolve all the outstanding disagreements that happen when you start talking about climate change and so, you know, I think that's why you see
[00:18:27] You know the administration talking about build back better and infrastructure and jobs And everything gets you know, I think is seen through that lens So you could be addressing COVID you could be addressing climate change
[00:18:39] You could be addressing, you know, the power sector and it's all going to be I think, you know Approached or seen through the lens of how can we make this a stronger more resilient American economy?
[00:18:51] With these conversations that you're in it sounds like that the manufacturing domestic manufacturing is really the big way To kind of get over a lot of maybe the traditional pushback or other issues you run into
[00:19:04] Is that kind of fair to say or what have you found to be like a really effective way to Move the conversation forward and really bring people of all different backgrounds together and see the value moving forward this way
[00:19:16] Well, so I actually think and I think it's healthy for the democracy I think one of the lessons that people took from the last several elections is that we need to do a better job of Making the case that what you know book parties are doing it
[00:19:29] Whatever you're putting forward is your top priority You need to be able to go to people and show that it's going to be good for them in their community And part of the reason is I think you know certainly in times of turmoil and people are strained
[00:19:43] They get a specially responsive or sensitive to how is this going to impact me as a voter? And so I think if you look at you know this this last election you look at the northern battlegrounds
[00:19:55] So your Minnesota Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio Pennsylvania. You look at Arizona. You look at Georgia There is I think a Resonance with that kind of you know, you know blue collar working class Independent voter who is really you know, they were trying to you know
[00:20:13] We're working two jobs trying to put food on the table and unless you can speak to them in a meaningful way about what you're trying to accomplish I think you know, I think you'll be you'll you're kind of automatically on the losing end
[00:20:25] And so that's why I think both parties are increasingly trying to speak that language which I think is healthy And so you know for us You know we again, we believe that electric vehicles address and solve
[00:20:40] Variety of our challenges that we face as a country and it's you know, it's certainly good for the consumers It's certainly good for climate change and for you know for for public health But you know more importantly as we address all those issues
[00:20:52] It is an enormous potential to create jobs and really reshore Domestic manufacturing if you look back to where we were you know, 10 or 12 years ago If you look back at 2007 we got our lunch eaten by foreign imports that were more efficient than American made vehicles
[00:21:09] And you know, that's the really the choice that we face We can either cultivate this sector and take this spark of American ingenuity and turn it into a true success story Or we're gonna be seeing this economic opportunity to foreign commercial interests and be reliant on imports
[00:21:25] And so it's not just about today It's about how did the decisions that we make over the next couple years impact the next decade And how does the next decade impact the next three decades?
[00:21:35] And so it's just really critically important to get this right and getting it right means Getting it right for local communities and in creating jobs That's great. And I think One thing to just follow up for my own clarification
[00:21:47] I know a lot of the companies that Zeta works with and a lot of the public policy pillars on Tongue twister there is kind of around domestic manufacturing, but at the end of the day it is really about electric vehicles in general Are there any sorts of thing?
[00:22:04] maybe pushback or Questions that kind of come up around Like you said, you've got high-end a got VW a lot of other global manufacturers are making some actually great compelling electric vehicles today What are some of the ways that?
[00:22:21] That your organization is maybe able to help them as well just by getting more people in the seats and awareness of electric vehicles in general Well, the ecosystem is actually it's very distributed
[00:22:32] So if you were to look back prior to World War two you would have seen a a vast number of automotive companies in the US And after the war that consolidated dramatically We're now seeing the pendulum swing back the other direction
[00:22:46] There's you know, I think the reason that you're seeing the incumbents respond in the way that they have is they're They're receiving a lot of pressure from insurgent aspiring companies
[00:22:55] And I think that's really healthy and I think it you know when people are clamoring to meet the demands and the needs of Consumers I think it's healthy. That's what the market is for and and I think that's really where this is going is that increasingly consumers
[00:23:09] You know are gonna be looking for the vehicle that meets their needs And I think early on and this is you talk about some of the stumbles I think the stigma of EVs was you know
[00:23:19] It was a decent leap and people didn't really envision the ability for their family to you know Pile in and go to the soccer practice and all the things that you know, you do but now there's these you know I think really you know competitively priced and competitively
[00:23:35] Capable vehicles that are coming to market. There's already six or seven that are priced below the average price of a MSRP of a Internal combustion engines in and but there's gonna be hundreds of models coming out in the next five years
[00:23:48] And so I think you know, and that's you know That's both gonna be your volvos in your Nissan's But I think what we're excited about is that you know Ford and GM are making commitments
[00:23:56] But then you've also got folks like Rivian and Lucid and Faraday and Morgstown and It kind of the medium and heavy-duty folks like arrival and pro Terra They're gonna be out there, you know answering the question for communities and families of
[00:24:09] How an electric vehicle can best serve their needs and that's really exciting It with all these kind of different brands are talking about there is an interesting Dynamic because we're talking about now foreign and domestic manufacturers, but we also have within domestically
[00:24:25] Traditional auto ems and then also kind of these startups the Tesla the Lucid the Rivians and one of the areas where the OEMs have kind of been different than the
[00:24:36] Startups, I don't know if you can really call most of them startups anymore because of their size, but it's around charging infrastructure Mm-hmm and really making that kind of a seamless experience with that transition
[00:24:47] To an electric vehicle making just easy and something you don't have to worry about that kind of goes back to that change anxiety thing
[00:24:54] What are some of the things that you're working on at Zeta that you are kind of working towards to really help make that transition around charging infrastructure? easier for drivers Well, so it's actually in some ways a
[00:25:08] Antiquated view in that right now if you're if you actually look at the plug There's really only two plugs in the country and it's almost like yourself. I'm right You've got your mini USB and your lightning stick and that's kind of how
[00:25:20] Charging is developed in the light duty side. There's actually more harmonization on the medium and heavy duty side It's you know, we're gonna be moving towards a single plug But even the light duty side, it's you know, it's as it's it's two most cars come with an adapter
[00:25:34] And I think you know the market is gonna make it even more accessible for folks as we build out the charging infrastructure So you've got companies like EV go and you be connect and EV box and charge point
[00:25:46] You know, it's gonna feel a little bit like, you know, I don't know if you've ever You know been in the micro mobility or scooter space But you know, you're looking at four or five different apps looking for the right place
[00:25:57] You know to get a bike or a scooter and it's gonna feel like that Initially on the charging infrastructure side But you know increasingly I think there's gonna be just ubiquitous charging and people, you know
[00:26:10] Won't think twice about it kind of like, you know, we've become accustomed to think about gas stations Charging is going to be the same way and it's you know If you know not somebody that does it a lot I tend to charge at home
[00:26:22] but you know, I can also go to the grocery store and charge and I think increasingly as it becomes normal to You know park in a retail setting and go into the store Or you're you know, you're gonna be at a movie or you're you know
[00:26:35] You're you're gonna be at school or you're gonna be at the office Charging is just going to be an opportunity that you can face anywhere. So I actually think in some ways right now It's about sequence. You know, you want to be able to outpace
[00:26:47] The car and so you want to make sure that there's enough charging to support the current vehicle fleet We also don't outpace it. You don't want to have so much that you have capital and since idle and
[00:26:58] You know, you get it's unused and so right now, you know We're in a healthy balance and my expectation is with the right federal investments we'll be able to keep pace with With the vehicle fleet that's out there and adequately serve everybody's charging needs
[00:27:13] Well, I think that's actually kind of what I'm asking towards is what do you think that that? Federal incentive needs to be and to make sure we stay at that healthy balance because I agree with the overall
[00:27:22] I think it's not it's depending on the manufacturer. You run into some issues But it's come a long way because I'm right when I was driving an EV for the first time like eight or nine years ago
[00:27:32] There weren't any so it's night and day and you're right majority of the time people are just gonna be charging at home So it's not a huge thing
[00:27:39] but being able to do kind of the great American road trip is a necessity for someone to really make that switch and I'm just curious gives with a lot of these
[00:27:50] Hardware improvements for charging infrastructure. I've been a part of some of these conversations and there's all sorts of Regulatory and other issues you just run into and I'm curious what kind of frameworks or how Zeta can help maybe
[00:28:02] Streamline that process and give information to utilities or others to really make it much more of a seamless experience Or for people who are curious about putting them in in their gas stations or wherever What what kind of agenda and what kind of?
[00:28:19] Regulatory improvements, let's say you know Zeta kind of looking to help Help push forward Well on the incentive side, there's an existing 30c tax credit, which is a 30% credit for the cost of installing a charging unit
[00:28:35] You know we want to see that expanded and reform but there's already a base there and a precedent for it What that looks like is yeah I think an opera is really a base for a site host a community a utility a third-party charging company to
[00:28:51] You know say hey we'd like to pursue electrification and charging For this use case and it's pretty flexible. I think again, we want it to be expanded But I actually think most communities are trying to figure out right now
[00:29:04] for every sort of capital improvement or upgrade whether it's building or in our Transportation or other sorts of infrastructure, you know, how are we going to make this meet our community's needs for the next 25 or 50 years? An electrification is just going to be part of that so
[00:29:19] The demand is there I think the Certainly the leadership of the local level is there and then you've got the right partners in place between the charging companies The utilities and the site host and so, you know
[00:29:30] I think the biggest compliment that we can provide to that is this strong federal incentive The other thing that you could talk about from a regulatory standpoint is building codes So providing, you know model building codes
[00:29:41] So, you know, let's say if you're building a new home for example It's just a lot easier on the front end to make it level to equipped and certainly capable of installing the charging and for commercial and other uses
[00:29:54] There's what they call make ready, which is basically all of the architecture that's needed before you get Putting the charging unit in the ground and so the more of that thing gets done Automatically as we're pursuing big capital projects and certainly the federal government can lead by example
[00:30:10] The better and you're just making that adoption in transition to electrification, you know simpler and easier That's great And I think a big part of that is kind of education to help support that but I completely agree with you on that
[00:30:23] So that that is definitely great to hear and I think the way forward So let's kind of look back at everything that's happened in the past year and I think there's two things
[00:30:33] Really big topics and one of them is COVID. It's probably the biggest obviously that's affected everyone globally And it's been interesting especially for automotive sales because when you look at it domestically and globally there is a huge nose dive in new car sales however
[00:30:49] Globally what's interesting is what actually went out was electric vehicle sales And there's there's a few reasons for that But I think a big part was people are seeing when people are driving less There is actually a pretty strong correlation to cleaner air
[00:31:03] Among with and then the the other part of that is is just if you're looking at like the average transaction price of Cars in general it's been going up. So it actually kind of does work for EVs. What what are you seeing around the?
[00:31:18] Conversation of like kind of takeaways or shifts in conversation Since COVID and how that's kind of impacting some of the work that you're doing with Zeta Well, I think ultimately one of the most impactful changes is I think a Socialization that we need to invest in strategic ways
[00:31:38] In order to solve our you know societies problems and I think you know we're federally I Certainly my hope is that you know We tend to match resources to problems and we don't first have an austerity litmus test
[00:31:53] I think you know some of the austerity politics of the past has led to some of the challenges that we face today and that could be You know a ailing You know infrastructure in the country. It could be
[00:32:05] You know certainly a lapse and an inability to address climate change So my hope is that we're entering a new era where we decide that taking on big challenges
[00:32:16] Is worthy of you know of the society that we live in and if you look back at all of the Kind of big upheavals and turmoil that we faced as a country We've always emerged stronger because we were willing to take big bold action to address them
[00:32:31] And I think bill gates did a nice job over the weekend On some of the sunday shows talking about how you know the Really the resiliency And the in the impacts that we might confront and the needs for resiliency are going to be far more disruptive
[00:32:48] If we don't address climate change than what we're seeing with covid right now Like the way he described is is it'll you know blow covid out of the water some of the impacts and the humanity That we're going to be challenged by and so you know to me
[00:33:02] that's my hope is that you know people see what a disruption in life can look like and You know it kind of brings to the fore That this is something that's possible. I think we've you know, we've in some ways been seduced by
[00:33:15] This this complacency that you know, we don't need to try hard things And we don't need to act boldly because there's just this you know mean
[00:33:23] Reversion of life that you know will coast and get us by but when it's been taken away from you like it has been for so many Americans I think it's an opportunity for us to look and say how do we do better?
[00:33:34] How do we actually invest in our our communities and make smart decisions that you know that that really make That's that sort of you know life and and in pursuit of happiness a reality for folks That's that's great. Um one thing that just kind of
[00:33:51] Hopped up in my head is a conversation I've had around When you mention infrastructure like how do you move this work? It's a big thing that's figured into infrastructure traditionally is gas tax both on federal and state
[00:34:05] And they all can have different ways to approach especially when you get to the state level But that is kind of becoming a conversation. Um, I think in some ways it has been used almost as a A way to kind of push back on evs than an actual
[00:34:22] Like way to look about how to Incentivize them and move them forward But it is a valid conversation especially around like utilities with some of these upgrades They have to make and trying to figure out a way to do these upgrades
[00:34:34] So there are evs can be driven for everyone But then it's a usually a cost that's getting passed on to everyone whether they have an ev or not as it's part of A rate payer for these utilities Yeah, what?
[00:34:48] Oh go go ahead. Well, so the two points I guess I'll start with the utility side So it is um, that's one of the kind of the ev and tagging his favorite argument Is that everybody's electric bills are gonna skyrocket?
[00:35:02] You know, there was an example in the carolinas where they pursued a pretty robust Investment in ev charging. Um, they got an approved by the the state regulator And I think the the net impact on on folks electricity bills was 12 cents a month
[00:35:18] So really what we're talking about here, you know, it's kind of a scare tactic It's since you know per month rather than dollars And so I think, you know, it's kind of a easy foil
[00:35:29] You know for folks to go and and try to you know, say that evs are going to be the end of End of the world the other on the on the infrastructure side, you know, I think, you know, we have the ability
[00:35:41] To finance our a world-class infrastructure in this in this country And you know the gas tax has been broken for decades and we actually so, you know, we've severed years ago We severed the gas tax and it's adequacy to address our infrastructure needs
[00:35:57] We take from the federal treasury and have for decades money to make sure that You know that we're addressing failing infrastructure and candidly, we've done a poor job at it But still it is it is, you know a minority of it is funded through the gas tax
[00:36:11] Most of this comes from the federal treasury And so, you know for 1% penetration for electric vehicles in a lot of regions to point the finger at EVs and say, oh, it's the reason the gas tax is broken is pretty just and genuine
[00:36:24] And so ultimately I think where we need to move is a vehicle miles traveled in in I think a tech neutral way And and ultimately what you know what folks have done, you know, certainly state houses across the country
[00:36:36] Let's say for example your average gas tax that a that a consumer would pay in a given year Let's say is $100 what they'll do is they'll point the finger at EVs and then go charge $150 in an EV tax as a way to
[00:36:50] Address what is the quote-unquote inequity in it? But ultimately what that does is it's you know largely driven by the oil and gas Interests in the refiners because they see it as an existential threat to their business model
[00:37:01] And it's just punitive and so ultimately what we need to get to is a system where you know It's a user fee and we have a you know real conversation about reform And it's something that everybody contributes to fairly and again at the end of the day
[00:37:16] You know, it's it's something that most people Don't think twice about and we fairly inequity You know resource the the challenges that we face as a country and I think that's you know That's something that everybody wants to strive for and It's not terribly complicated
[00:37:31] But you've got a lot of political interests that are going to you know scrum and fight for You know that are carbon supremacy over our economy along the way And I think that's a really great way to kind of break it down because you're right
[00:37:44] It's I would agree with you traditionally been a Fallacy kind of argument made to kind of push back on EVs, but moving forward I think that is one of the things at least I've been seeing on a state level is around that
[00:37:57] Miles traveled or how to measure that Which is a whole another conversation to itself, but thanks for sharing. I was I was curious about your thoughts on that So we talked about coven and now to move it to come more recent topics
[00:38:08] Obviously, it's kind of what we've seen in texas with failures in the grid and Issues around charging and how like utilities can look forward to kind of better build more resilient infrastructure Whether that be due to climate change issues or around Greater adoption of electric vehicles
[00:38:26] Can you share a little bit of what maybe those conversations have been at zeta with utilities and what you're hearing and seeing kind of moving forward? Yeah, I think ultimately there's a lot of lessons. I think you know learn from the abject failure
[00:38:41] That the texas ercott and and and you know and communities all over texas really suffered from I think the most important thing to think about is We have the ability and I think this is just a baseline. We have the ability to serve a load
[00:39:00] You know from the power sector to consumers it is a built architecture It exists all over the country. It is a very efficient way to deliver fuel to eat people's homes To to certainly to power their vehicles and to power our economy
[00:39:15] What happens is human error and I think that's ultimately what happened In texas there was a failure to winterize To some degree it was a distinct minority but a failure to winterize some of the wind turbines
[00:39:29] But you know by and large this was such a a cold snap That well heads for the natural gas and other sorts of applications that you know pull up The water along with you know gas and oil and others
[00:39:43] Throws and you know, I think the numbers that I've seen showed that 80 percent Of the the failure was actually related to hydrocarbons not renewable energy and and not a you know a failure a failure of the actual The grit it was just a it was a generation failure
[00:40:00] And so you know to me if i'm a texan The lesson that I take away from that is one. Hey, I'd sure like to be a part of the regional grid and not have Uh a island that I live on for my power sector number one number two
[00:40:13] But I think many people are thinking about this is You know what what can I do? To have a more resilient personal power experience and in a and I think I distributed energy Whether that's you know wind or solar
[00:40:30] Or certainly, you know a solar plus storage is a is one way to do that You know I think you know Certainly if you look at the peak pricing in a in a really competitive market like texas
[00:40:42] You know there are people that got eight thousand dollar utility bills And so at that price point It can make a lot of sense to make investments in solar panels or or retail residential Storage capacity and then that begs the question of how does the car fit it?
[00:40:57] And you know there is some ability To do vehicle to home for power. Um, I think there's probably greater potential for vehicle to grid So let's say, you know this was the summer and you have You know 50 000
[00:41:13] Idle electric school buses that have you know strong battery packs in them There was a way to draw on certainly at peak times the energy from those stationary medium and heavy duty vehicles And to even some extent light duty vehicles to serve the grid
[00:41:29] And so I think that's part of the potential here is that the more Penetration we have with electrification The more resilient we can make the grid in a host of ways And part of that was made possible by a recent third quarter, which was third quarter 22 22
[00:41:43] Which allows us to aggregate that power and sell it on to the wholesale market And so that's a potential for your battery Not necessarily to be constantly cycling and feeding the grid
[00:41:56] But your battery at those peak times when power spikes from you know, $15 a megawatt hour to 300 or to 500 To provide some resiliency To the grid and certainly if i'm a texan and and i've got a a variable rate
[00:42:13] When those when those prices peak it sure will be a benefit for them to have some storage at the at the Residential setting so I think it is going to get people thinking about
[00:42:23] Their needs and solutions in more creative ways, but I think you know by and large I think you're going to see some reforms in texas because again, I think most of the failure here Was human. I mean it was certainly a
[00:42:35] Inatural disaster and a natural challenge, but again, it was human failure that led to this But I think not to make it sound like we're completely picking on texas
[00:42:46] This is something you're seeing even with on the I'm on the west coast. So we're seeing it with obviously the wildfires they're different They're different kind of natural and kind of man-made elements playing into this
[00:42:58] But the need for a more distributed grid as well as kind of just more Resilient is definitely a big trend we're seeing just across the country You mentioned kind of the example of medium duty and someone who kind of works with a lot of these different
[00:43:15] Kind of manufacturers. I'm curious what your discussions have been and where you're seeing the examples of maybe vehicle to grid Pilot star because it does seem and in my personal opinion, it does seem like the most
[00:43:29] The most common and what's going to make the most sense to start with at least is probably going to be on the medium And heavy duty side with fleets Versus on the light duty just due to Warranty concerns and other things like that
[00:43:41] Have you been kind of seeing similar trends or are there any other kind of conversations you've been having with manufacturers that Are kind of changing those thoughts Well, I think the important thing and this is why I think third order 22 22 is important is that it provided for
[00:43:57] an aggregated You know sale to play in the capacity markets and receive an ancillary service payment for either a positive or negative load That you're able to provide the grip And so, you know, I think the important thing to me
[00:44:11] I think the biggest potential is vehicle to grid for that reason and and I think vehicle to home is a little more difficult You know with that constant cycling, I think there is some worry about degradation
[00:44:23] And what does that do over time? Does it does your battery range? Um get impacted in ways that otherwise wouldn't I think that's what you know You've got manufacturers that aren't dying to have their cars used in a way
[00:44:35] They didn't intend and have that impact range in their you know, their brand reputation But you know, certainly a twice maybe three times a year pull You know from your battery in a two-way charging to be aggregated and deliver
[00:44:50] Either a positive or negative load to the grid makes a lot of sense And I think you know, you get paid a capacity payment You get paid for the energy if you deliver it but you also get paid an ancillary service
[00:45:00] And so if you can aggregate that I think it's actually a real value To the consumer and can help them, you know net out the economics of going electric The other thing that I think is you know really an interesting part of
[00:45:13] You know the negative load essentially is you know, most people in the summer are going to come home They're going to plug in their car and turn on their ac at the same time
[00:45:21] And if you have a level two charger, you know, most people are going to you know reach their You know their their their capacity limit on their battery in an hour or two Maybe it's maybe it's four hours
[00:45:33] But that doesn't need to be between six and ten at night. It can be between You know midnight and four a.m. And so I think some management Of when you charge and having that be part of the equation So that you can you know have a
[00:45:46] Relationship with the grid that again, you know could prototype could provide a positive load at times But certainly in a in a kind of a demand response space, you know ensure that at those peak times
[00:45:58] That you're coordinated. Yeah coordinating your energy flow in a way that makes economic sense for you The other thing that I tend to think about Is you know if you're running one of these vehicle to grid or an aggregated program
[00:46:12] You know, there's there's a way for you know consumers. Let's say, you know, you're going to go do a Regional analysis and you're going to figure out when do those p demands happen?
[00:46:21] And you know, most likely it's going to be the same hour or two of the day Throughout the year or maybe two or three times And so if you have some arrangement where you're aggregating a bunch of consumers that are willing to be
[00:46:34] You know committed to having their car plugged in for a period of time Again, maybe that's light duty. Maybe it's a school bus fleet. Maybe it's you know municipal vehicles There's a real potential there to you know create hundreds of millions of dollars of utility scale storage capacity
[00:46:51] Just by coordinating human beings and how we behave And so I think that's a really cool opportunity for people to make money and for us to make the grid more resilient That's great. I I think What you're seeing around kind of that
[00:47:06] interest in vehicle to grid and the overall resiliency is there conversations you've been having with the battery manufacturers of Trying to get more whether that be Utility or even residential like what maybe some more pro battery backup or just other kind of grid storage conversations
[00:47:23] What what have those been like? and is that kind of A separate issue or is that all kind of falling into a lot of these topics because I feel like they are separate technologies
[00:47:33] Yes, but with all these themes that we're talking about right now and really a lot of the people we have on grid connections It is definitely a strong way of or a strong part of having to how we're going to move forward with all these other technologies
[00:47:48] Yeah, and me actually I just earlier today had a conversation with the energy storage association Here in dc, but you know, they're they are connected You know, actually one of the one of the most immediate connections and I'm sure others have done this
[00:48:02] But rivian has done a good job of marketing the capability But you know once a vehicle, um, you know hypothetically 15 20 years from now Um, you know comes out of um, you know, it's full. It's full life cycle and
[00:48:17] That bad or at least for rivian can be pulled out of the vehicle and stacked for immediate baseload storage capacity So again, the performance may not be ideal for a vehicle anymore
[00:48:27] But it's plenty good for your utility scale storage. And so there is there is a connection there I think it's if you think about it, it's kind of second life And then from second life you get to recycle and I think the recycling Is really really exciting
[00:48:42] Because you know if you can pull out 95 of the critical materials um, that's not only A good commercial domestic manufacturing opportunity, but that's a huge part of the sustainability story here You can use that same gram of Cobalt lithium copper graphite nickel over and over and over again
[00:49:02] And some of the battery manufacturers will tell you that they actually prefer They recycled material rather than an extracted one. Uh, and certainly now the price points can be lowered
[00:49:11] So, you know that all feeds into the same battery packs. Um, you know, obviously there are the scale and the size changes with utilities Use but they're all connected And I think they all have the same critical material supply chain
[00:49:24] And the more that we cultivate that and secure it, I think the certainly the price points come down But also so does our you know independence and our ability to ensure that this market and economy thrives going forward
[00:49:36] Yeah, that's that's also another great point. I I think the second life market I mean, I'm you don't really have to go far. You can do a quick google search or just go on a youtube to see for every Wreck tesla or nissan leaf
[00:49:48] Before it's even being used for something like that people there's become a huge market for people just go into junk yards and ripping these batteries out and using them in everything from
[00:49:58] Uh repairing old cars to make them EVs to home systems or even other just random randomly designed gadgets, but You kind of a big part of that is around kind of sustainability Part of it which I completely agree with
[00:50:13] I am curious like when I went to zeta, maybe I missed it But one of the big conversations that still continues is around clean hydrogen as a form of sustainability and I would be
[00:50:26] Curious to hear your thoughts on how that plays into your conversations and how you look at that as part of this transformation Moving forward. I think hydrogen has kind of left the conversations really when it comes to Um the light
[00:50:40] Duty it's still kind of there, but for the most part kind of gone away You're seeing it really around trucking and then also around the grid I would be curious to hear what you're seeing as well Um Yeah, in the transportation sector
[00:50:55] You know the thing that people have to think about is that you know We already have and have invested for you know a century into a delivery system for electrons. It exists It's already out there I think to recreate that For hydrogen refueling is just really really costly
[00:51:13] And so I think what you may see is some long haul trucking applications again, maybe the weight of the battery pack Um makes it something where it's comparable to think about the kinds of infrastructure investments you may need to deliver hydrogen
[00:51:26] Uh, but I think really, you know where I see the biggest potential for hydrogen Is in the marine? You know, certainly, you know potentially aviation you've got forklifts. You've got some other applications that it makes a lot of sense where
[00:51:39] You know because because transport is actually a huge cost of hydrogen I think you know certainly co-location where you're creating the hydrogen and use really makes the economics a little easier so if you think through Give it a utility scale hydrogen almost always
[00:51:56] You know the folks that are thinking about this in the right way Okay, and they also they use it as an energy storage. So it's seasonal storage It's peak storage. So, you know, you're able to blend um, I think it's certainly
[00:52:09] You know you currently can blend about 30 into a gas peak or hydrogen into the mix I think Siemens has some turbines that allow that obviously with some retrofits I think there's a hope that that gets to 100%
[00:52:20] But you know hydrogen is going to be a huge part of our decarbonization story certainly the more that we promote Um, you know green hydrogen where you're taking renewable energy in order to you know power the electrolyzer and create the hydrogen
[00:52:32] but you know, I don't see it as a It pervasive part of our transportation sector when you think about, you know, most of the you know the light duty Like I said, maybe some exceptions and kind of classes four through eight
[00:52:47] And in forklifts and other things but you know, I think ultimately, you know, kind of your your your big industrial marine And your aviation I think there's some hope there that it could be kind of that you know that final squeeze that we need to decarbonize our economy
[00:53:02] Interesting. Okay. Now that's that's good to know Um, I guess we're kind of coming up almost an hour here and I'm curious to know Obviously, you're very close to the public and the private side with what you're doing at zeta
[00:53:16] One of the questions I ask a lot of people who are on this show is like What would you like to see and we've talked about a few of these things But what would you like to most see from the industry?
[00:53:26] uh, whether that be innovation in a technology or A more accessible regulation change I just be curious to know what you'd like most like to see come from the industry to make it easier For people to get into ebbs and have kind of this impact on the grid
[00:53:41] Well, I think the the most important thing for industry right now is to have strong domestic manufacturing capacity And I know most of the the companies In this ecosystem really really want it. They know there's a demand for it
[00:53:56] But part of our struggle is creating it and I think that is not only a question for critical materials But it's also, you know the ability for us to use incentives to build up that you know components and supply
[00:54:08] And other sorts of ingredients that go into a vehicle and so You know, that's the biggest challenge right now is you know, I think sometimes without the long or strong commitment or runway For a smaller manufacturing You know component
[00:54:24] They're just not really ready to retool and so I think matching up and sequencing The assembly of a vehicle the final assembly with the full You know integrated supply chain is really what we need to get right. It'll answer the question for how do we best create jobs?
[00:54:40] How do we support domestic manufacturing? But it'll also I think fully tie in the political coalition that we need I think where everybody can see this as a win for them and their family and their community is the place that we need to get to quickest
[00:54:55] Um, you know, we've got the right um, I think answer and this is the direction that we all need to go and You know, certainly, you know, like I said, it's better for the consumer. It's better for public health in the environment
[00:55:07] I think when we compare that with you know, clearly showing that it's better for job creation and domestic manufacturing That's the full spectrum of where we need to get Great well, I just want to say
[00:55:18] Uh, thanks, Joe for coming on to grid connections today for those who are interested in learning more about zeta and the work you're doing And maybe to become a part of it where can they find out more and help your organization?
[00:55:30] Yeah, so zeta 2030.org is our website. We've got our comprehensive 34 point plan our roadmap to 2030 on how to electrify the transportation sector and Would encourage folks to also sign up for our newsletter and we we tend to give them
[00:55:46] Not only an opportunity to join us in advocacy, but Early kind of landscape level political reads of where things are going in congress and and where our transportation electrification can really be accelerated
[00:55:59] Well, thank you joe for joining us today and we'll look forward to speaking with you again soon Yeah, thanks so much. It's been fun and eager to come back Thanks for joining us be sure to visit our website connecting the grid.com
[00:56:11] There you can listen to our podcasts Contact us about sponsorship or even be a guest on grid connections While you're at it if you found value in this show We'd appreciate a positive rating on your favorite podcast or video streaming service
[00:56:25] Or if you'd simply tell a friend about the show that would help us out a lot too Thank you again, and I look forward to us learning more together soon