Loren McDonald from EVAdoption

[00:00:04] Greetings. Today we're talking with Lauren McDonald, the founder of EVAdoption. Lauren and I have a great conversation around a few different topics, but I think one of the things that I've really enjoyed talking more and learning about, Lauren is just

[00:00:17] the shared quince-adental career history that we've had together, can I come in from some of the marketing space? But now also working with a lot of large global auto-EMs, especially during this transition to electrification. We discuss with them everything from the importance of level two

[00:00:33] charging to the current rollout in challenges of public fast charging in the United States, especially around the IRAs funding in the Nevy program and for which chargers and what locations are chosen and at what rate. Unfortunately it's starting to sound like that that's actually

[00:00:53] one other area that Tesla is having a large advantage is their continued interest in continuing to roll public fast chargers without the need for government federal funding and what is slowing down current public chargers. These are just a few topics that we talk about on today's episode.

[00:01:09] Overall, I found it super fascinating and I'm really excited to share this one with you. Enjoy. Thank you Lauren. It's great to be speaking with you, did I? I'd love to kind of just let people have a quick intro from you for those who may not be familiar.

[00:01:23] Yeah, great first thanks for having me on the show. Really excited to talk about all things EV and EV charging and yeah just a quick background. I mean, one of those people's born and raised

[00:01:37] in the San Francisco Bay area, believe it or not, back in the 60s during the hippy, hippy phase and stuff. So I was always fascinated by all things sustainable even before that was a word.

[00:01:50] That we used, but the environment and so actually before EVs were a thing I was interested in new that eventually electric vehicles were going to be the future. Never really did anything about it until

[00:02:05] I reached a certain age of gray hair and no hairs we like to say and launched actually a blog called Lauren Green which only people in their 60s will probably get the

[00:02:20] the analogy there. It's a name of an actor who was on a western TV show back in the 60s, but I was writing about everything sustainable, right? Solar EVs, water, packaging, recycling, everything like that and one day in 2016 I just said, you know what? I'm not building any

[00:02:44] deep confidence in one area. I'm not sort of focused and I decided out of all of the topics to focus on EVs because I thought it would be sort of the most interesting thing from kind of a behavior

[00:02:58] of economics perspective, right? What is it going to take to get Americans as we like to say to adopt a adopt EVs and that just seemed like sort of one of the most fascinating things. So I launched

[00:03:14] literally on January 1st, 2017 the EV adoption website. I was working full time at IBM as a marketing evangelist at the time so I was doing this on weekends and my spare time and primarily is it,

[00:03:31] you know, is it again sort of like a thought leadership resource website? But then I started getting a lot of requests from businesses to do forecasts and come speak and things like that. And so

[00:03:42] then it started to turn into kind of like a side business and then in 2020 decided to go out at full time. So I've been at it full time since sort of late late 2020 and my daughter joined

[00:03:58] the business with me and have several freelancers and consultants around the world that help out as well. And yeah it's been a fun ride so far. That's I mean that that's a great kind of recap

[00:04:12] and it's been awesome to you. You're a evolution career wise, very similar to mine. I'm having quite a bit in the software marketing side and now kind of hop back into our personal passions around EVs.

[00:04:24] I think speaking of that just like around the marketing and around the perception of EVs, what are some of the maybe lingering misperceptions that you're kind of still seeing in the space, whether that be about EVs or more in particular, I think you're background EV infrastructure?

[00:04:45] Yeah, I mean obviously there are still like dozens of misperceptions around EVs in EV charging and you know sort of in no particular order. I mean I think one of them that's sort of EVs specific but related to charging obviously is how much range we people actually need.

[00:05:09] You know there's still this per cent, like almost every survey ever done over the last 15 years more than half of people say that they need at least 300 miles of range and some people 400, 500, etc. The reality is most people not everybody but most people can get by

[00:05:29] with you know 200 to 250 mile range, be EV and live a perfectly good normal driving life right. And I kind of hate to use the same numbers that everybody uses that you know most people

[00:05:45] only drive 30 40 miles a day and whether that's true or not and it is for a lot of people but the reality is you know like where I live in the berry you still want to be able to go up to like the wine

[00:06:01] country for the weekend and back and not have to charge and you know you want to have that sort of comfort that you can you know you can drive an hour or two away, go to the beach, go to the mountains,

[00:06:12] whatever it is and do I have to charge right and so that's why I've long been a fan of you know that that between 200 to 50 is actually a pretty good range for for most people.

[00:06:28] Our first EV was a Tesla Model S60 which had 210 miles of range and we drove it down, took my daughter you know down to college and Southern California and back and stuff several times and

[00:06:41] well it wasn't perfect for road trips you know it was fine right just you stop and you know get a nice guy's breakfast lunch or dinner or whatever it is and you make it work then when we upgraded to a

[00:06:54] Tesla with rain and 35 miles of range you know it it it made that a bit easier you you know stop one or two less times and stuff like that but fundamentally you know I think the first thing is is people just

[00:07:09] think that they need way much more range than they actually can get by and maybe it takes a little bit of you know experience with with an EV to sort of get comfortable with that but I still think that's

[00:07:25] you know kind of the first biggest thing is is that people just assume they need too much range I think the second thing specifically around charging is is that not unexpectedly people compare the electric vehicle refueling experience to the refueling experience of their gas cart right and so

[00:07:53] most non EV people you know say well you know it it only takes me five to seven minutes to refuel my gas cart right like that's what I expect from an electric vehicle the hardliners like

[00:08:11] you know I'm never gonna get an EV until you can like charge in in five minutes so don't talk to me right and so the the misperception is that and I refer to it I have a slide I use a lot when I

[00:08:26] when I present around this as I call a decentralized for centralized right and that the idea that you know when you refuel a gas cart it's you know it's it's a very conscious decision of

[00:08:39] you know I'm gonna drive somewhere to a gas station whether it's on my way to work or on a road trip right and you go there and you specifically go to a gas station to to refuel and you're in and out quickly

[00:08:55] with EVs it's it's much more akin to like the smartphone charging experience which is wherever there's a plug right and when you sleep right you plug it anyway up in the morning and it's fully charged that type of thing

[00:09:10] and so it's you know it's educating people that it's it's different that the way you refuel an EV is is not the same as how you refuel a gas cart and it's you know I refer to it is is parking is charging

[00:09:26] right like literally cars spend most cars will sit 22 23 hours a day right no I completely agree with that yeah and and so that's the always be charging yeah I can't even relax with the parking infrastructure for sure right and so you know I think that's

[00:09:48] sort of like the second big sort of misperception is just sort of comparing that and expecting that charging an EV should be you know as quick 5 7 minutes or whatever it is and it's like

[00:10:02] though that's that's not how we did now yes of course when you go on road trips you want it to charge quickly and stuff like that but again all except for you know that guy that that you know never stops

[00:10:14] when he goes on a road trip and carries a bottle that he pees in on on the road trip right but I'd be honest I think there's very few of those people and I would say I'm not being in bottles

[00:10:25] but I'm probably as close to that as you get and even then I mean I did 31,000 over 31,000 miles in our EV last year and we both work remotely and the most I've done is from Ben to Phoenix

[00:10:41] and one day which was all pretty close to 1200 miles and even then it's doable and I think technically because I didn't it's previously in a gas car a couple years ago it was like I think it turned out to be

[00:10:58] a much lower difference than I thought it would be it was under an hour difference but the other thing I really noticed was pretty pretty good yeah yeah I was definitely doing the so when it

[00:11:11] else and I'm sure you've seen them both brand inflation then calconeer on Twitter and cal we had on the show before but definitely that kind of style of charging where it's essentially you just

[00:11:22] cranked 200 gas as far as you can on that first charge and then try and go about an hour and a half to two hours per charge but just get in at low percent and go use the bathroom get some snacks

[00:11:34] get some water and then get back on the road and that that's I think the easiest and to be honest have I done it quicker in a combustion engine yes I like to think I am the safe driver in general but

[00:11:48] I will say that is kind of when the perks of just getting out of the car with a couple hours walking around kind of thinking just kind of a mental reset I totally get for people who are kind of against it I like

[00:12:00] combustion engine but I definitely think EVs are a future and it's crazy to me and I know you've seen the studio just how much the not just the charging infrastructure but also the EV charging rates haven't

[00:12:11] proved so it's not one to one but it's going to continue to get better and any I think the only time I can ever do those kinds of road trips is when it's just me if I'm with my fiance or we have the dogs

[00:12:25] the car is always ready before the people traveling with me let's put it that way right yeah I mean oh I'm just going to say that's that's the exact importance of not only just infrastructure but reliable infrastructure especially when you're going from rural Oregon to

[00:12:45] through Nevada to Phoenix yeah but again you know part of it is like you said it's you know it's it's not necessarily for everybody but I actually enjoy road trips more now because

[00:12:58] I think about it as you know in my family thinks about it is you know like more qualitative than quantitative it's like it's like it's you know we're not calculating you know how

[00:13:10] fast how long it's going to take us to get there we're thinking about no where do we want to eat do we you know do we want to write you know a nice breakfast do we want to stop it's

[00:13:20] totally when stop at the Harris State Ranch and have a nice dinner and you like you know you think about it sort of more more quality we want to stop at the outlet mall and shop for a

[00:13:30] little bit right and and so it's you know that sort of the you know the challenge of right it's it's of that misperception is getting people to think that it's it's a different

[00:13:42] way to travel right it's it's it's totally you know it's it's quality over sort of quantity or speed and then the sort of the last couple of just to sort of finish this question off the last

[00:13:55] couple of things is really as one is you know sort of battery life right there's a lot of misperceptions I've even seen it lately that some you know very famous people and stuff around

[00:14:07] the world is oh yeah you know you have to place your battery in five years and stuff like that seven years of whatever is and I mean as you know when most of your listeners probably know I mean

[00:14:16] we're headed towards you know batteries that are gonna last you know 15 20 years eventually or whatever you know million mile Tesla battery we're here about but you know fundamentally there's a lot of misperception array a around sort of life for the batteries and then the misperception of you know

[00:14:36] all these batteries are gonna end up in landfill and stuff and and anybody that you know understands economics I mean it's one thing you know to take take this smartphone right and throw it in

[00:14:49] in a landfill but you know a battery pack that costs 20 thousand dollars it's not gonna be thrown in the landfill right there's you know there's companies as you know like redwood materials that

[00:15:02] are probably gonna become when they go IPO and a few years you know one of the single most valuable companies on the planet because they're set up to basically extract all the minerals out

[00:15:14] of the batteries and repurpose them into new batteries and exciting the whole second life battery thing right so I think you know getting people to understand that you know these batteries are not

[00:15:25] going to wind up in landfills they're gonna be repurposed and then the last one I'll throw out is just the you know all of these are charging on coal right and that's true if you live in West

[00:15:41] Virginia right but there's only like 500 EVs in West Virginia so it's like you know so there's certainly our substates even Colorado which is one of the highest adopting EV states in the U.S.

[00:15:58] is sort of an outlier and that they still have about 25% of their grid is is coal but but you know there's actually a pretty good direct correlation between EV adoption and how green the grid is like where you live you know up in Oregon and particularly Washington

[00:16:17] I mean Washington is like 99% high-grow or something like that right yeah we can have a unfair advantage when it comes to that but even here in Central Oregon the amount of solar panels just

[00:16:28] which I've never understood why they haven't done it's sooner without much land there as an eastern Oregon and how much sun we get out here but yeah I mean you're you're totally right it's changing

[00:16:38] it's changing at a pretty quick clip and I think the call out about the batteries is totally a spot on because they they get all the headlines of them going into landfills but a pretty quick

[00:16:50] Google search and you can kind of start seeing no there's value in second life there's value in recycling them and so many of these companies now realize this is where they're going

[00:16:59] and they're being much more proactive about the full life cycle and the thing I always say is sure let's say it's the worst case you buy this new car you drive at a hundred miles boom

[00:17:09] you get an accident you wreck it for some reason there's no second life option and it gets recycled right you can't do that with a traditional combustion engine the gas you spend every

[00:17:20] a lot of what you spent the engine can be recycled but not the actual energy and kind of them I mean the materials kind of going into in the core part of it so I mean there's there's a lot

[00:17:30] of just a life cycle appreciation that I think you're right probably a lot of people listening this already understand but that I think is part of the job sometimes people listening to

[00:17:42] this are those that know kind of have to do the job of being an advocate or the educator but no I really appreciate all those because I think those are totally valid in ones we're still

[00:17:53] seeing and it's always get to now someone who had the Tesla 60D I am kind of curious did you ever do the software unlock for it or was it hey no I thought about it talked to my

[00:18:09] was so for those listening what what what changes referring to is the the Tesla model 60 actually had a 75 kilowatt hour battery pack in it that was software limited and it a couple of

[00:18:22] different times of our we so we at least at least were on our third Tesla we have the model why now we've least all three of them just because of what we're talking about the future better and better

[00:18:32] I want to buy it right but yeah I think it was like initially it was like $5,000 to upgrade to the 75D and I think it added 35 or 40 miles of range I can't remember what it was but

[00:18:48] something like that but then I think at one point they came back with like for only 2500 then I was I was intrigued but talked to my wife and she's like NA and you know we actually

[00:19:02] it was fine we didn't need it but I was tempted at the 2500 but you know for taking two road trips a year was that worth 2500 versus you know versus sitting there at you know the Kettleman City larger and eating in an outburger and waiting in extra 10 minutes

[00:19:24] like the charge no it wasn't worth 200 yeah but yeah I think that's pretty fair and yeah I myself have just a long range model why as well and it's it's such an easy road trip in car

[00:19:38] before that I had a couple model S that essentially I had access to his business cars and those were great a lot of fun but just the new charge rate of these smaller cars and how efficient they are

[00:19:49] it makes it pretty hard to convince it's worth the extra money and I think that's obviously an area where they've done very well now that we've kind of talked about some of the misperceptions

[00:20:01] though I'd be curious as to kind of maybe a little bit more forward looking and what you see as some of the biggest changes and maybe challenges around getting this greater EV adoption and maybe the role Pee have's another kind of technologies kind of play in this evolution

[00:20:22] yeah I'm so you know right now we're in this this interesting period we're just looking at like the automakers we're last year there was more demand than supply right and so you know if you wanted an EV it was pretty tough I mean I'll tell you

[00:20:41] a quick anecdote so last year I was out doing some research for a client and I stopped in at a four dealer and said hey I'd love to check out the Mustang Machi you know at least was was coming up

[00:20:54] and and he laughed at me you know I think it was like the owner of the dealership but he was closing up I got there like you know 555 and he laughed at me he said you know I'll put you on a list but

[00:21:08] you know I'm gonna get one in two weeks and it's and I have you know 20 people on the list kind of thing and you roll forward to you know so then what happened everybody went and got a model why

[00:21:19] you know because you know they were there for plenty of 100 thousands of them right now we're all forward and the automakers work through the COVID and supply chain issues and they're and they got there like battery cell production is starting to scale except for you know GM is

[00:21:38] still struggling with uh with the old TM's scaling that and stuff but um now we have an issue of kind of oversupply right and there's been a lot of misperception in the media that um you know that

[00:21:54] the demand has often and uh now the reality is we just have too many EVs being produced now versus not enough last year so I think you know one of the sort of issues and challenges is

[00:22:07] you know historically has been that production ramp but now we're sort of level setting and you know affordability has been you know it used to be range was um you know

[00:22:20] sort of one of the big challenges and hurdles to EV adoption and you know I think now affordability is is you know as we start to move into more more mainstream adoption you know that that is sort of

[00:22:38] the one of the biggest challenges along with charging which you know which I know we're going to we're going to dive into more deeply but um you know related to that um the big challenges is we've

[00:22:51] got to get a supply of used EVs out on the market and uh that's just going to take time like there's not really much we can do to speed that up but um as I'm sure you know that that you know in the

[00:23:06] um about two thirds of vehicles purchased every year are used right versus versus versus new and so people everybody focuses on you know that 16 million 17 million 15 million new vehicles purchased you know every year and obviously various if you million depending on the economy and stuff like that

[00:23:27] but you know there's like 45 million use vehicles that purchased and that's how you know the middle and lower classes actually by vehicles is you know as they buy with cash or whatever it is you know

[00:23:42] a lot of the use vehicles and that's really what we have to sort of focus on right is is um is sort of the next step is you know is how do we get you how how to get used vehicles into the hands of

[00:23:59] sort of moderate income people and I think that's you know again like I said that's going to take time but um you know we need sort of more incentives and different things to sort of help with that

[00:24:11] but um you know some the other things that I think are are really exciting is just the changes with battery chemistries and and battery innovations I mean for years we've been sort of mostly

[00:24:23] focused on NMC so nickel manganese cobalt you know lithium batteries but then you know the last couple years we've started to see that um you know with sort of the Chinese with the LFP

[00:24:36] the iron based batteries and now you can buy like a 4-defin 50 two different battery packs the lower range has the LFP batteries the longer range more expensive as the NMC and you know two years ago

[00:24:52] that sort of didn't exist and now the market and all the automakers have sort of bifurcated and have literally kind of it's almost like they went in a room and all agreed

[00:25:02] right that that you know we're gonna use LFP for a sort of our lower range more affordable models and NMC for the longer range sort of luxury batteries I mean the NMSLA has has gone that route right

[00:25:16] and so you know that helps with the affordability right a little bit less range and stuff but but lower that cost you know iron is is still actually mostly from China and stuff like that

[00:25:29] there's also some supply chain issues and stuff but then you know going forward we're looking at sodium ion and solid state batteries and you know again a couple years ago nobody was talking

[00:25:41] about sodium batteries right and so that is a BID and a CATL or actually supposed to have sodium batteries in EVs this year and sodium is basically salt that's sort of like everywhere right

[00:26:03] so that's gonna be a game changer and then Toyota still says they're on track for solid state batteries and you know that's the last five years yeah they've said that last decade but you know

[00:26:16] there's there's like solid up like solid power and several others that you know can you that are working on that but so I think that's sort of the kind of the the next phase really is

[00:26:31] that sort of you know battery chemistry innovation and there's a lot of other innovations that are coming down the path that are gonna you know add range but and life expectancy but more importantly then lowering the cost and I think that's sort of the next

[00:26:52] the next big hurdle because you know it's now it's pretty easy to find an EV with 300 miles of range or 275 or whatever is that meet most people's needs it's like okay but now how do we

[00:27:04] find them that are affordable is right that's sort of the next challenge yeah I think those are all great points and well there's definitely been an over supply of EVs I think the bigger issue isn't

[00:27:18] so much interest it is like you're saying affordability and especially around interest rates the interest rates I think are just killing sales in general whether it's ice or an EV and

[00:27:29] I I thought when I got the I think my rate was 3.75 and I was like damn why is this so high and that was only maybe early mid 2022 when I thought that was a high rate and now it's like hard

[00:27:45] to find anything under 8% and I mean it's just getting wild and I think that is really I mean one the cost of new cars have just skyrocketed in the last decade anyway and so has that kind of

[00:27:58] negatively impacted the use car market but that plus even with some of the prices come down that plus the interest rates I think is honestly the biggest issue for adoption right now versus

[00:28:09] even and has nothing to do with power trade I know exactly cost of money yeah and I think what you call out around the different chemistry of the batteries is pre-spot on too because I think

[00:28:23] test is kind of evolved like you said yet a Tesla Model S60 well now they don't even do the battery pack size they'll do kind of long range and I think that's I think that's something

[00:28:34] a lot more automakers need to kind of figure out because for years they've marketed this is the force cylinder this is the eco this is the V8 and it's really not much different on the chemistry

[00:28:47] of the batteries if you're getting a V8 you're expecting performance and not as good a range or gas mileage right and I think that's something that it's coming around and we're starting to see

[00:28:57] it more but you're totally right I think the advances in sodium on the other chemistries are really going to bring down the affordability and also the overall the just lifespan of the vehicles

[00:29:08] yep in MC isn't bad by it means but when you start comparing to LFP and sodium it just looks like it's I mean it's well to say that a battery is higher or kind of essentially more finicky

[00:29:23] but in MC is compared to these I mean and it's already such a rock-solid lifespan we're seeing with some of these older in MC batteries anyways but I think just to recap those are all great

[00:29:36] points around that but let's I think really get into the bread and butter of this conversation obviously your area expertise then I think what a lot of people are most interested in if they haven't been

[00:29:46] already daily driving an EV and it's the horror stories they're hearing around the charging infrastructure so can you kind of just give us a quick overview of the current state of charging domestically and then kind of break down how Nevi and some of these other programs are playing

[00:30:01] into that yeah I mean obviously we sort of touched on the charging misperceptions and things like that early on and you know we all hear that most people charge you know at home 80 you know I like to say it's actually higher 95% of the time right like you know

[00:30:22] we rarely charge out on the road except when we would go on on road trips but you know the charging experience I mean the top story in the EV industry the last year has really been the

[00:30:36] unreliability of a fast charging and we'll just we'll just we'll call them out you know electrify America is sort of the the poster child of of that but you know the challenge that we've had is

[00:30:56] that I call it the you know the 1849 there's you know it's like we've got the gold rush again they're I mean every day I hear up two or three new companies that I've never heard of before

[00:31:12] that are airing the things place I mean like literally and so they're literally there's not just hundreds there are thousands of companies entering some element of the charging space and so you know a lot of the companies whether it's you know it's charge point playing electify America

[00:31:29] EV go like go down the list it's like it's a race you know it's a race in essence to like the the 49er gold to find the gold before other people right it's to find the best locations

[00:31:42] highest utilization you know the you know the best you know next to the best restaurants and all those types of things and so you know for years it's been just how do we get the charges in

[00:31:59] the ground get the grants get the get the weather it's federal whether it's state whether it's utility whether it's you know air resource or how do we get the grants convince the side host to let us

[00:32:10] put these chargers and they're parking lot and and get them in the ground because the business model is that eventually in four or five years when EV sales are up and there's a

[00:32:25] lot of EVs on the road that utilization will get up there then we can break even and then after that we can actually make money so it's like it's you know the business model has been sort of bizarre

[00:32:37] that it's not about like how do we deploy these to make money it's like how do we deploy these the hopes that in five years we'll actually make money so it's sort of setting yourself up and

[00:32:50] so it's very capital intensive you know a lot of these companies have talked about Republic some of them are running out of cash has been some article. Well the console it's funny you

[00:33:03] mention how many new names are coming in but the amount of consolidation and the amount of times I hear a name like I haven't heard that name and almost a decade I even know they were still around

[00:33:13] and then the confusion around some of this consolidation because I remember I was doing a road trip maybe I was going back from Phoenix or going to in this happen but someone had acquired

[00:33:25] Cima Connect or someone had acquired Blink I forget which way it would blink acquired some of Connect yeah that's what it was and so I fortunately I didn't use it but just happened to be at a place

[00:33:35] where there was like a level two charger I tried plugging in and it was down and I was like oh that's not surprising but it turned out the only reason it was down was because they were doing some sort

[00:33:44] of system wide software updates yeah and it was just like such a horrible and unfortunately a horrible user experience yeah and that's so common right there are there are dozen reasons why

[00:33:59] you know sort of getting back to it why the the charging experience outside of Tesla has been the headline and and I've probably done 20 interviews over the last couple of months around like

[00:34:13] the the charging experience and stuff but you know it's it's like I said it's the you know hardware like there's been so much demand to get these deployed so quickly that the hard

[00:34:27] make hardware makers were just pumping these things out as fast as they can and maybe the electronics and different things weren't as good as they should be a lot of them are just simple things like

[00:34:38] they're not designed for in climate weather right and so they get problems with that bugs get inside like literally you see these on social media all the time like where there'll be like a hornet's

[00:34:52] nest or something inside and it causes like the fan not to work or just like something but you know some of the biggest issues are just like software issues as as you mentioned right is is I mean

[00:35:05] think about the challenge and this is one of the advantages of Tesla I mean I think in general Tesla's single biggest advantages has been software not just for charging but for for their vehicles

[00:35:18] and we're seeing that playing out with other you know automakers that they're struggling will software but I think you know the Tesla ecosystem everybody always compares it to Apple and it's sort of true because it's this close system where Tesla makes their own hardware you know they

[00:35:38] it's their charging connector it's their chargers it's their software like it's their app their payment system it's just you know and I'm on my third Tesla and it's like I've been spoiled right

[00:35:50] you just pull in plug-in and walk away and you know think about if you're one of those other hardware makers whose names we may have may or may not have mentioned it's like you've got a design

[00:36:03] your your hardware and software to work for you know 50 plus B EVs now right and yeah and and those vehicles are had doing software updates all the time which means when you test to that

[00:36:17] for your you know charging software to work it was on a previous version of the software so there's just a lot of different different challenges and payment issues and cell phone issues like a very common

[00:36:32] issue is is that you know cell service goes down right and so you can't authenticate the payment so there's literally like you know like it doesn't fail your points of what what causes potentially

[00:36:46] a bad charging experience not even including you know the fact that the parking space might be the iced right you know maybe might be parking there um you know or just um yeah you know hours you

[00:37:02] know the gates are locked it's dark and you don't feel safe so you don't want to charge there I mean they're just so many bad experiences and so that's kind of the next evolution is as we get

[00:37:13] that a lot of these hardware and software and mechanical issues and plug-in charge you know sort of rolled out and those kinds of things fix then the next thing is sort of the broader customer experience

[00:37:29] of you know having bathrooms and a squeegee to rush your window having you know an onming covered to be covered you know quality food error for your tires like just stuff that you expect

[00:37:48] again I talked about not comparing the gas station but people expect those those types of base level experience right yeah and I think that's where um you know we're gonna get into sort of

[00:37:59] the nevy program but um the national electric vehicle infrastructure program which um is in total at 7.5 billion but the core that most people think about is the 5 billion that's going to build

[00:38:13] out first the highway corridors but one of my favorite things about the nevy program and there are a lot of things that you can we can quibble about of what's good and bad about it but I think what's

[00:38:27] that minimum what's best about nevy program is it sets some baseline standards right 4 150 KW charges that have to be up 97% of the time and you know if you know anybody has done

[00:38:44] the math which I've done hundreds of times 97% means the charger is down 11 days a year right so it's not a high bar right I always like to say what if uh if Amazon web services you know AWS

[00:38:59] was down 11 days a year for like any commerce site no we would accept that right or sales force right you know you and I both come out of the the SaaS industry and stuff and it's like you know

[00:39:11] it's like 99.99% right um and I'm kind of curious I'm sorry I just jump in yeah you have the knowledge of what the at or like a really rough estimate of what the average down time for a gas pump gas pump oh gas pump

[00:39:29] you know it does happen I'll see I'll get to a gas station and they'll be one down but the rest work but obviously I've seen I don't remember off the top of my head

[00:39:41] you know it's it's definitely north of of of 99% and you know and the sort of the the differences you said yeah I mean we we all have pulled into gas stations and

[00:39:51] seen the yellow tape over or whatever is um but the you know the the difference there is even if a gas pump is down there's usually seven other or you know or 11 other or 15 other

[00:40:09] gas pumps that are working totally but the other part of it is that is the throughput is people they're five to seven minutes so even if even if they're all you know if it's like a gas

[00:40:22] war time you know where people are everybody showing up but they got even if it's one of those things where people and what you know they're they're churning you know every five to seven minutes

[00:40:31] whereas at a fast charger if there's you know four 150 KWs and one one is down in three being used you know you might have to wait 30 to 45 minutes for the next one to I've been to public

[00:40:46] chargers where I'd be happy if holding one is down right right yeah uh no but I think that's totally fair and not not to go in too much of a tangent that is one of the things I'm really curious

[00:40:56] about and I don't know if you've heard this I don't think it has been announced but um the theme we've been kind of talking about the last 20 minutes is around the like the hardware is the base

[00:41:05] level that's like the foundation and then the actual thing that creates a customer and just like a safety of my I say for mine kind of the experience for the end users that software level and I think

[00:41:18] what it's really easy to be new to EVs and just as long as you know the base hardware knowledge like the plug types which you can't have to know you can kind of figure it out from there

[00:41:28] but what Tesla's done that makes it really easy is that software level around not only knowing where they are but it'll plan it for you now admittedly I don't even think it's optimized the best

[00:41:38] but at least figures it out for you yeah and you can then see not only the site but how many are available and of all the trips I've done there's been one time when it was wrong but it'll even say okay

[00:41:51] what uh which charger is down and which one's devoid and stuff and just I am really curious if that level of knowledge in software is going to be available and part of these deals that

[00:42:03] Tesla's making with four which EM and all these others because I think if it's not available day one it's something that needs to be made available to drivers sooner than later because it

[00:42:14] will kind of help avoid congestion avoid a lot of these other issues and kind of makes the understanding of owning and driving an EV. It kind of it makes it it makes the ramp up from going

[00:42:26] a novice to knowing the hardware part of how to plug in to then how to like actually think about going on a road trip and feel good about it. Yeah I mean I think the the in-car navigation

[00:42:39] integration with all of that charging date and stuff is key but you know I was I mentioned I was just up in a very rural area in California wine country but you know I planned

[00:42:55] and researched you know where I could charge using you know using apps everything from you know charge way to the Tesla app and plug share and everything I actually use sort of you know

[00:43:08] while I was you know sitting there before we'd go out I sort of would research things that way but then out on the road when when we were coming back and we had to stop off in a little town

[00:43:20] called Yucaya you know there was actually two Tesla superchargers and I went to the one that was farther away that we had to go farther out of our way because it was next to an in and out

[00:43:34] burger and it had more more stalls right but I could look and see how many were available and that type of thing and stuff and so I think you know we don't yet have any transparency

[00:43:47] and into these deals Tesla's doing with the now 14 automakers including themselves if you include in that because yesterday of when this is being recorded Jaguar announced that they're recorded in ACS but I think you know Tesla is very app driven and so at minimum I think

[00:44:12] part of the deals will probably include some sort of an integration with you know like the Ford Pass app or whatever whatever it is and again we don't really know and my sense in what I've

[00:44:27] heard from people inside some of the automaker companies is they have no idea like these deals have and done you know between like CEOs and stuff and I've heard that literally engineers in the

[00:44:42] EV charging teams at some of these big automakers were like they heard about it when it was still right yeah and like so yeah so it remains to be seen like we haven't even heard

[00:44:56] I only heard for the first time yesterday about like how they're gonna handle the adapters right so apparently Ford is gonna supply I think that's what I heard the Ford is gonna supply

[00:45:09] the the max adapters to existing owners but but we haven't you know we haven't even really heard how that's that's gonna be handled but but answer your question like my guess is that at minimum

[00:45:21] we'll see some you know software level integration probably with it with the different apps I'm in with APIs you can do sort of right much anywhere will it be as good as in seamless as the

[00:45:32] Tesla experience probably not but but if it can get 80% there you know like you say a huge improvement yeah if you can see the availability uh and you know uh uh yeah

[00:45:47] you know I mean I think you're in the level of charger and how many stalls are available wait time I mean they started to do that like wait time because these times that kind of stuff

[00:45:57] mean information is power right so the more than information that is shared with with the other automakers um what will help with that that that are experience total I mean even now with these

[00:46:10] public chargers even between DC fast charging and AC public chargers um the app level knowledge and to the level at which it's usually an accurate still kind of astounds me um I realize there's a lot

[00:46:25] of variables but so many any kind of goes back to what you're saying about uh having a pay-by-car and all these sorts of like things that are technologies that have actually been done in other

[00:46:36] industries and other hardware that is outdoors all the time for decades yeah and it's just still kind of surprising to see where this delay and just unfortunate um problems that we kind of keep

[00:46:50] continuing to CR yeah I guess it's just gonna have a quick anecdote in sort of the customer experience so a couple months ago we went with some friends down to a different wine country or I've done

[00:47:04] the past a robberies where we'd also have never been and uh friend has a Nissan or Raya and so he drove we all with them and um I actually chose where we should stop right and so um uh I won't mention

[00:47:19] their name because they're they've been a client of mine and i'm good friends with the CEO but a for a regional charging network we stopped off um and you know the the user experience was just

[00:47:32] kind of confusing because it it literally had three ways you could pay right like you know download the app scan the QR code do this do that but it was like written in like you know a 10 point font

[00:47:44] on the hardware uh and I have this picture of my friend like literally like trying to hold his iPhone to scan the QR code at the right angle because of the sun to like do it and it was just like

[00:47:59] am I supposed to do all three like it wasn't it wasn't clear like you know it was like do I have to do all three stops or can I just do one of them like it was just sort of confusing and

[00:48:11] stop it and then it didn't authenticate at the first time around so we unplugged, re-plugged it and then it worked fine and stuff but it's like you know there's just like this industry it just

[00:48:23] amazes me of nobody understands user interfaces and usability it's just it's just like horrendous and so again that's you know Tesla figured that out 10 years ago and and everybody's you know

[00:48:39] throwing in the towel instead of like fixing it I don't know if this is going to show up on the camera or not but maybe pull back a little bit but there we go yeah this was the charging for a six

[00:48:53] kilowatt level two yeah and ring goes up and I had the patient to actually try and figure it out and it still took about 10 to 15 minutes and fortunately I didn't really need a charge I went back

[00:49:08] later because we were staying in a nearby hotel and so that second I was like okay I kind of do it I headed all set up and so I go to get the app and I plug it in and I was like oh damn I forgot

[00:49:18] on the instructions like step three or four is you have to do all this before you plug it in it started charging yeah and I realize this is only in here so they can get a really backwards

[00:49:29] and really horrible way to char or like pay for the charging which was over priced as it was for only six kilowatts um and I realized like okay I just don't have the patience for this I'm just

[00:49:41] going to plug in and it's their loss uh I have no phone paying for charging but if you as a business have to make it such a work around so complex yeah exactly but um yeah I think both of us could

[00:49:57] probably have our own podcasts just going back and forth with any doubts of charging fails but um let's let's try and refocus back on the nevy funding yeah nevy speaking of that and kind of just

[00:50:07] yeah yeah the rollout and um I think there's a few different topics I want to talk to you but one question I have for you is given how long it's taken for the rollout has this only actually

[00:50:19] benefited Tesla Moore wow interesting question um yeah I mean probably so at some level because one of the things and you probably aware of this I mean I publish a lot of statistics and one that was

[00:50:35] sort of really um blue people's minds is is Tesla is just at another level uh they're in another universe when it comes to deploying fast chargers so they're they're averaging you know I mean

[00:50:53] it varies on the month but but you know typically 350 to 400 DC fast chargers being deployed per month in the U.S which is more than all other charging networks combined right and so they're they're

[00:51:12] they're like lapping the field and they're doing it at potentially a quarter of the cost of everybody yeah so that's this has been one of the sort of the most exciting you know it's I'm

[00:51:27] like a kid in a in a candy shop with this Neve data I'm starting to collect a lot of the data from the first five states that have announced the awards and have been filing freedom of

[00:51:39] information aqua quest to get the like the real detail and so yeah Tesla's cost structure is is insane um there there's some cases they're their cost report is like a tenth of of of competitors right there there's some sites where they're at about 250,000 for eight 250 KW chargers

[00:52:07] we're in the same state another company is it over a million for four 150 KWs right it's like no I and I think there's two parts that one you're totally right like the operational level

[00:52:21] and the product to the proctization of this is just they need I almost want them to have a competitor a true competitor to make them push them even further but if the way that they just

[00:52:35] have it all pre built I guess in New York and then just essentially drop ship plug them in I truly wonder how fast they could actually do it if the utilities and the actual

[00:52:46] premise actually could would that get the could almost even get to yeah could get to a closer scale of speed that they are but I think my original question really has to do with I think

[00:52:58] everything you said is spot on but especially around the adoption of the North American charging standard the next adapter versus CCS because when Neve was a really announced and kind of start moving forward that wasn't even a thing it was essentially CCS or nothing

[00:53:16] and now it's been at a complete 180 and I think that's where it really has been a bigger because it's taken so long and in the meantime obviously the real world and infrastructure side

[00:53:28] of it has taken off but it's also the deals and the automakers that are saying that are going charging standard that's really benefited Tesla yeah but the the you know the Neve requirements don't reflect what's been going on and haven't changed and there are no plans to change

[00:53:49] the Neve requirements which you know for your listeners if they're not aware Neve requires you know for 150 KW Chargers with CCS connector and anything else is optional right so now there are a couple of states that are saying okay you have to either have the nex

[00:54:17] connector in addition or have the path to upgrade one of this stage and there in there are of peas doing this from memory I think it might have been Kentucky as basically and they sort of

[00:54:32] of soft pedal but they're saying you at least have to prove to us that you have a path like the hardware that you're specifying has a path to upgrade and so the sort of saying we were

[00:54:47] hiring it but not immediately like you can wait until like the UL listing is actually approved for the hardware with the nex connector and those types of things and so there's a path to that

[00:55:00] but but only a couple of states have sort of come out and said that that that's some level they're requiring it so you know it's it's going to be interesting but but you know down the road

[00:55:15] as the site is the bitters when these and more and more hardware becomes available with with the nex can maybe that's just sort of going to be sort of the future where they they specify

[00:55:27] two cables with with the CCS and and a nex connector and that becomes the standard I think that's probably we're going to see a period for several years where we'll receive that and adopt

[00:55:39] their help. We have Rick Chattamo. Yeah. No and I think that's that's actually a great call out by your point that it's actually nevy on the federal side has hasn't changed but it's what

[00:55:50] we're kind of now seeing from the states specifying the nex interest. Yeah yeah but again oh that's good call. You so far and most of them are like like I spoke with California

[00:56:04] folks and they're like you know no we're you know we're going we're just staying with the now a year from now we may change but right now we have no plans to change and so I think most states

[00:56:18] you know are playing it pretty conservative there's just a few that are you know sort of being a bit more aggressive and entrepreneurial I know how many states have actually awarded nevy funding.

[00:56:31] So five states as of the recording of this podcast so Hawaiian or Ohio were first and then main Pennsylvania uh oh Colorado yeah and those are those are the five states that have announced Hawaii was a bit weird they actually the years ago pre-neve they selected a company

[00:57:02] to basically manage their like charging deployment and that company's got the contract and then picked like the deployment vendors and the hardware and the software companies and stuff and so there was less transparency around that but yeah and so you know there's right now there's nine states

[00:57:28] I believe from memory that there are if peas are open with a couple closing pretty quickly but you know so we're we're starting to enter into like the the serious phase of nevy where

[00:57:44] you know there's a fair number of states with with their RFPs open and stuff but the reality is probably half of the states aren't even going to open their RFPs until 2024 right so you have this real

[00:57:58] cast me have a state like the Ohio who was early in first they were so early they actually had to go back to I have a client that that submitted 20 applications to the state of Ohio

[00:58:12] and then Ohio came back after the nevy rules changed and made them refile their applications right it was like pretty pretty insane and crazy but Ohio is actually about ready to open up their phase two

[00:58:27] so you know Ohio will award their second round of of that's what nevy awards before probably 50% of the states even open their first round right so you have this sort of white

[00:58:41] white cast some some states have even come out like Missouri and said you know we're just going to wait and learn best practices and see what mistakes other states make and sort of learn learn from that

[00:58:54] South Carolina is a simple example of how this is playing out hasn't even hired the consultant who is going to actually run their program yet right they just close the applications for

[00:59:12] the consultant to run their their nevy process right so we're the net of all of that is if you look at sort of a bell curve of deployment and when when the nevy funded chargers are

[00:59:29] going to be employed it's really the bell curve the top of the bell curve is probably in 2025 is when we're going to see a majority of the nevy funded chargers actually open and deployed

[00:59:43] you know and and chase some of what's behind this is it's really complex and the process I'll give you sort of two more anecdotes right like Minnesota actually had to pass a law

[01:00:02] they literally their state senator whatever had to you know assembly had to had to write a new law so that they could actually use the procurement process for the net like they had never funded infrastructure the way nevy is structured California there are two government agencies

[01:00:24] the CEC California Energy Commission and CalTrans the California Transportation Department who sort of co-owned nevy but they actually had to it happened in August they actually had to have a board approved the CEC of the two would actually own and run it like they had this like

[01:00:46] identify and so there's a lot of things that were the states like they just don't know how to do this and so it's yeah it's going to it's going to take a while but the other thing I would sort of

[01:01:01] add to this which most people don't know is you know this five billion and nevy funding everybody talks about it from the highway corridor perspective and if people don't know part of this is what's called alternative fuel corridors AFCs it's designed that there's these

[01:01:23] four 150 KWZ aluminum every 50 miles on sort of those highways that go from you know oriented wherever and one mile from the highway but there's only a each state there's only a certain number of those and so once they spend the money and comply with that 50 mile one

[01:01:47] mile requirement they can spend the money however they want they seek to live which I think that's a great that's something I was aware but that's a great call out I don't

[01:01:57] think most people are aware of that at the point and so I've done the math based on some joint office of energy and transportation that they released that it is my prediction that

[01:02:12] most states will have a minimum of 50 percent and some as much as 75 percent of their nevy funds left over after complying with the highway corridors to spend on sort of more local community

[01:02:30] base charging much of which is going to be level two so you know this is this is you know people inside know this but but most people aren't aware of this that actually you know probably more than

[01:02:43] half of the nevy funds will go to like local level two charging and stuff like that not just those highway corridors and that's actually a really good thing. I agree that's great there's two things

[01:02:57] I all of that is great and this is really fun conversation I think one thing is I guess I was kind of referring to the next charging standard in Tesla and just to clarify I mean obviously a lot of

[01:03:10] these providers working for the nevy funds are kind of indifferent but I think is it a state or is it a federal thing that requires that no one company can have more than 25 percent so even

[01:03:25] with what we've done that with Tesla even though they're doing well obviously they're only going to still be kind of only so much they can get from these awards but is that only state?

[01:03:34] Yes so it's it's it's state by state so not every state has that and for the listeners what Chase is referring to is a few of the states basically said that no single bitter can win more than

[01:03:54] 25 percent of the site bids or or funds and stuff and in Pennsylvania Tesla won 21 percent of the bids right but interestingly enough just yesterday it all changed for four sites have been recanted so Tesla pulled out of two in Blinken charge point each pull

[01:04:20] out for a variety of reasons no interesting and then seven new sites have been awarded so yeah because all of these nevy awards when they announced the winners they're called conditional winners and that they have to go through various sort of processes and stuff like that

[01:04:40] and then companies like we just saw can actually pull out for a variety of reasons and stuff so it's so it's and then yeah no no I appreciate that that's a good clarification for the the second

[01:04:54] question I have just in relation to all that is there in your opinion and in the conversations you have whether director can't it going back to what we said about Tesla just lapping everyone do you

[01:05:07] think a lot of these companies that are doing public charging are kind of holding back to scale until they get more nevy funding or do you think it's a mixture of things?

[01:05:20] It's definitely a mixture but but I have heard I was I was at an event a couple of months ago and speaking with an executive of one of the largest like engineering companies that has

[01:05:35] many of the largest charging networks CPO's as customers and he's like oh my god our work has come to us for a stop because they're all waiting on the nevy fund right so there's

[01:05:50] been this sort of you know one of the downsides of nevy is and I've heard this from from a couple of people right that that you know I mean let's let's just be candid here like a company like

[01:06:04] eve go is fundamentally built on grants and incentives like that's their business right is you know we go where the money that's why they don't have charging stations out in the middle of the highway and North Dakota and Wyoming because there's like there's no utilization and there's

[01:06:23] no funding for it right so they follow the money and yeah and so some of these companies there's like been drooling at the at the nevy funding and they they're actually holding off so in

[01:06:36] some ways you know again back to your your earlier question you know Tesla doesn't care Tesla doesn't need the nevy funding that it's actually more pain than it's worth for them because they have to have all these additional requirements and you know we all know Elon Musk himself

[01:06:52] and it's just this is go right and we're gonna do it our way so you know in some cases um yeah nevy is is is slowed some things down in in some cases at least that that's what I'm hearing

[01:07:05] because most of these companies they they have plans you know to to deploy anyway but you know the the attraction of additional funds but then there are other companies so one of my

[01:07:18] clients is building out a fast a fast charging network and they have a contract with their client which is a major automaker um that they have to build into play certain

[01:07:34] number by like the end of 2023 it's set art right and so for many of the companies they have their targets and goals on in some cases contracts and so it's with or without nevy right like if we can

[01:07:51] get the nevy funding great but if we don't we still you know we're still gonna get these things in the ground because like that's our business or whatever so yeah so nevy is you know in some

[01:08:04] cases it's it's slowing some people down and in other cases you know it's yeah it's just like whatever it's a nice to have yeah I won't mention names but it is funny you say that because I've

[01:08:16] talked other people about this um around some of the early agreements made by OEMs automaker OEMs and then these charging networks about okay we're going to use X charging public uh charging company

[01:08:29] is gonna help us get to this number of chargers and you just look at the real and they had strong starts and now it just seems like all of those are kind of full on off the cliff um but let's pivot

[01:08:41] let's go let's go over to level two charging um because I think if you don't drive an eve you're thinking about GC fast charging public infrastructure which totally valid but you really

[01:08:53] only need that if you're doing a road trip um and and now obviously you start kind of getting into like well if you live in a parliament all this stuff but level two charging is kind of the solution to also

[01:09:04] then if you don't have your own home or easy place to charge overnight and then honestly there's been so many times that if I had been at a place where we stopped and it just had had a level two charger

[01:09:15] anyway we could have skipped the next fast charger we used or um it would have been if it had just been slightly faster but it'd been more than six kilowatts um it would have been a night and day different

[01:09:27] so I would love to hear kind of your thoughts on where this is um in your own experiences within and then of course how this kind of applies to nevy and the future of it yeah I mean the you know

[01:09:40] right now there are um we're approaching we're not quite there yet but we're approaching 150,000 public level two and DC fast chargers in the US with 30 I think we're at about 32,000

[01:09:57] maybe off on that from from memory but you know fast chargers stuff so right so the point is is that you know the bulk of a public charging in the US is is now and always will be level two right

[01:10:12] like if you roll out to 2030 I have this chart that where I pulled a forecast from like four four like major you know McKinsey and there's some uh different different global analyst firms and stuff like that and there are anywhere from 1.2 million to 2.3 million chargers that we need

[01:10:35] in 2030 to support the number of EVs that are going to be on the road but you know like you know 80% of that is the level two right because it's it's at you know

[01:10:49] at the restaurants, at the hotels, at the wineries, at the beach you know those different types of things and so you know the route like you is like this is something that we could we could actually

[01:11:00] spend a whole hour on is is the beauty of Tesla's combination of the supercharger network and the destination chargers network because as exactly as you said like when we've gone from the

[01:11:11] barrier where we live down to 7 California you know a couple years ago we stated the hotel and resort in Palm Springs and they had Tesla wall connectors there and I knew that and so literally

[01:11:24] you know we could we knew we could stop one last time at the supercharger because we knew when we arrived we could just plug in and wake up in the morning with the full charge which is exactly

[01:11:35] what we did and so the beauty and the sort of what isn't talked a lot about is just how DC and level two and destination charging go hand in hand and and the importance of it and

[01:11:54] it's like the hotel chains are really waking up to this. We you know just recently there was the big deal that Hilton announced they're buying 20,000 wall connectors from Tesla. I did a project

[01:12:08] for won't name them obviously but one of the other largest hotel chains that are recent large announcement themselves. They they they did but you know all all the hotel chains have figured out

[01:12:25] that you know people with EVs actually choose where to stay whether you know right on whether there's charging there but not just that but it's fact that hotels are like the ideal use case

[01:12:43] for like rescue charging right which is you pull in after driving you know from Oregon wherever it is and you plug in and you wake up in the morning and your EVs fully charged right it's that perfect

[01:12:57] you know charging is parking or parking is charging however you want to think about it and so yeah so level level two is key but it's also not just hotels right it's you know like I said

[01:13:10] I mean tasting it's like you plug in. Why are you guys running spurs? Yeah yeah you're not if anyone is listening to this and they're looking for suggestions please reach out to one of us because I'm

[01:13:21] sure we both could just name off. I mean there've been so many road trips I have done purely off level two and it wasn't in a way that was inconvenient and there's been so many I've already taken

[01:13:34] that if I'd had level two I was in convenience because and it not in a bad way but I could have skipped a DC fast charger altogether and I think if anything not only is level two the way to

[01:13:47] go but a large part of it too is getting the blinking that my battery is down the camera but I'm also getting it just it would save it one the engineering infrastructure cost go way down

[01:14:01] with level two and I think there's something to be said that they most AC chargers need to be higher it would want it be awesome if we had three phase more here but two it just higher

[01:14:15] amperage because even in a Tesla Model 3 Model Y one of the smaller like a high-end when the smaller more efficient cars six kilowatts is fine but there's still a huge delta between how

[01:14:26] much charge to get back that between 6 and 10 and then if you pull in with a rivy and let one like a chimsy hammer that's not going to do anything and so I mean I would love to see

[01:14:40] not just on both sides automakers make it so AC goes up to 16 more frequently but also a 16 kilowatt charger and then seeing that in actual chargers installed I guess one of the questions I have

[01:14:55] for you is what is this on any of the minds of the large charging companies or is this are they pretty much I mean traditionally there's been like blank and seemic connect that have

[01:15:11] had a large level two basis but it seems to be with the Neve funds and just the conversations it's all about the DC fast charging versus Tesla seems to be the only one recently and maybe seemic connect that have been making some announcements or moves in level two.

[01:15:27] No there's I mean all the attention right now because you know the headlines and the five billion dollars for Neve and building up the corridors and Biden and you know and and and and

[01:15:39] and nacks and and you know all that stuff is sort of brought the media tension around fast charging but there there are a growing number of companies focus just on level two and and and trying to

[01:15:55] solve sort of very specific problems right like so we have a lot of of companies focus on like vertical right so they're you know so that there's so much money chasing and so many startups and coming

[01:16:08] out that they realize that that that they have to have a very tight strategy and so like I've worked with a number of companies that that have innovative solutions around the multi-family space right

[01:16:19] sort of you know everything from doing level one you know smart outlets like plug zeo and orange and things like that to interesting financial structures of of you know basically we'll pay for it

[01:16:32] and the apartment owner doesn't have to pay a penny we'll we'll do all that and everything in between but um a lot of companies are you know focused on fleet charging and and different things

[01:16:45] like that or we're seeing right one of the next areas is herbsite charging right level two so whether it's pulling from you know a power pole right and like flow the Canadian company

[01:16:58] has been testing that in various cities and stuff where you know they attach the charger to the power pole you know work with utility and then they have a long cable with that's on a

[01:17:09] you know cable management pulls down and plug in your car so there's you know a lot of innovation going on there but yeah there's there's actually a bunch of companies you know and then it can

[01:17:22] be charging like workplace charging like that's one of the untapped areas that are not a lot of companies are yet focused on and level two again is it's perfect to that you know you drive to

[01:17:33] work and your car sits there you know for eight eight nine hours or whatever it is and with level two right you you know you could you could completely top up on on that and stuff so yeah just doesn't

[01:17:47] doesn't get the the headlines but but also I mean full-cut charge point I mean charge point is dominate in in level two charging that's still you know if if you crunch the FDC numbers

[01:18:00] you know you know I forget the exact amounts so I'm gonna be off here but you know like 50 60 percent of the level two public charge is in the U.S. or probably charge point right like they're just

[01:18:11] dominate right because that's that's kind of how they started and how they focused but so yeah yeah I think yeah obviously we can talk about this matter quite a bit just around level two I am kind of curious you talked about a few different things there one

[01:18:31] this reminds me though just the controversial question if there is one level two charger and a P have in a full battery electric vehicle show up who should who has the right to it

[01:18:46] whoever was there first right but if it's but if it's a tie yeah I mean I mean they both they both have a right to it right I mean it's it's um now if if you know if it's two humans having a

[01:19:09] conversation and the and the the B.E.V. driver says look you know all I need is you know is is 15 miles of range to get to the next fast charger which I couldn't make it to you know hopefully

[01:19:22] that the P.E. driver will say you know what you know I live you know well now I'm still here what's like I'll just switch video real quick if you want to keep

[01:19:34] answered the question you know I can you know I wanted to drive home on on electric but you know I'll let you take it you need it and I'll just I'll just you know do I drive the 15 miles

[01:19:53] to home on on gas or whatever it is but yeah I mean I think I mean I'm a huge fan of of plug-in hybrids and I don't I don't get caught up into that um that kind of debate you know people

[01:20:09] people say they're not E.V. well if they aren't then why are they called P.E.Vs and why does the government give them E.V incentives and why do they have an electric motor in a battery right like so

[01:20:22] I've had just like drives me crazy we could again that's another topic we could talk about for an hour but you know plug-in you know and again like what is what is the number one thing

[01:20:36] P.E.V. haters talk about is that you know P.E. have drivers don't plug in right so then when they do want to plug in that's a problem apparently you know so you can't have it both ways but you know

[01:20:53] I think and maybe to take the topic in a slightly different direction is you know I think one of the reasons I'm a big fan of plug-in hybrids is I call them training pants right there's a

[01:21:07] lot of people that just aren't ready for or B.E.Vs you know actually aren't ideal for them and so plug-in hybrids get people you know into at least you know partially electric vehicle and driving maybe

[01:21:21] a lot of their you know like they'll both owners you know used to our only stories people would literally had to drain their gas tanks because they never used the gas you know in in their cars because

[01:21:34] they could drive 80 90 95 percent the time on on on electric power right so I think that's the biggest issue with with plug-in hybrids is there's been so many that just didn't have enough electric range you

[01:21:48] know 18 20 miles of range and and I think that's been a US government regulatory failure like there should have been no incentives unless plug-in hybrid had you know minimum like 35 miles of range you know somewhere in that neighborhood 30 to 35 right because at that level it gets pretty interesting

[01:22:11] right because then you can you can drive to work or work and back or whatever it is but it you know 15 to 20 it's at some of these it's like give me a break right I think I have a more pessimistic view

[01:22:24] if you have them you do and that's that's the beauty I agree to disagree but I mean I think overall the points are right like I think there should be a minimum I think it also does play a role in

[01:22:38] kind of that education that experience for people understand what an EV could be for them from an engineering standpoint I'm not a big fan but that's a whole other thing but once again it's

[01:22:48] having options and having the right car for multiple people is a good thing and I think there's definitely been some advances in it but I think it is also really interesting because my fiance's mom actually

[01:23:03] just got the Volvo P-Hove and she replaced her diesel Mercedes with that and then her husband my fiance's father replaced their his diesel Mercedes six months before that with a model why and she's liked in the Volvo's a great car exterior interior wise but she's actually been really

[01:23:27] disappointed because she got so used to how fast level two charging on the model I was and I think the Volvo's only like three points it's again incredibly low charge rate yeah and I mean once again it's it's probably outstanding air a outlier experience than the norm but

[01:23:49] like I said having options is good but it has just it has been really interesting to hear their experience with it as someone who had kind of already made the leap and then they just bought

[01:24:00] almost as like a backup and then to hear that's the area that they love the car otherwise but the area where they have been disappointed is actually the P-Hove and kind of the range of it

[01:24:11] which I think kind of goes back to what you're talking about around what it needs to mid-ememes it needs to hit yeah and I hear I hear all sides of this those stories like that from from people who drive

[01:24:22] plug-in hybrids actually I know somebody we were talking about are coming we were talking about beef for the call he has he has one of the plug-in hybrid bullbos and it sits in the driveway and

[01:24:35] his wife has their car in the garage he never plugs it in but he so drives it like a regular hybrid right but but I mean I think the other thing is you know I think we could be wrong on this but we

[01:24:49] might see a resurgence of plug-in hybrids particularly are with trucks right like ram is is is is going to be coming out with a range extender because uh BV trucks are known for

[01:25:06] not being the greatest for tone and trailers and things like that it cuts the range in in half and stuff and people say well gas gas trucks also have lower range when they toe and stuff

[01:25:17] but it's obviously it's more pronounced with with BV trucks. I think we could see like it's interesting to see when ram comes out with their uh revolution rev 1500 I think you can get

[01:25:31] to have whatever but then they're gonna they're gonna have a range extender on it and stuff so you know never say never we could the you know until you know it is still all in on regular hybrids

[01:25:42] and plug-in hybrids along with BVs and so there's also you know they're supposed to be coming out with a plug-in hybrid that has over 100 miles of range there's um what is it? is it Mazda? Mazda's

[01:25:58] got one coming out with it's gonna have 50 or 60 miles of right like you know so we you know well most everybody you know like GM been particular and some of the others are like no we're just

[01:26:11] full B you would see the BV or gas goes right nothing yeah exactly um you know several of them are still you know they're not letting go of the plug-in hybrids and you know we could see some innovation

[01:26:25] and you know at 50 you know 40 50 60 plus miles of range plug-in hybrids are pretty attractive to a lot of people and I think you know if our end goal which something we haven't even really talked

[01:26:39] today is you know our end goal is reducing GHG's right that that's the point of this the point is not to sell the EVs the point is to reduce GHG's and you know we we rather have that late adopting

[01:26:55] you know pick-up truck driver in Alabama or Mississippi or North Dakota in a you know a plug-in hybrid ram or in in the diesel right right like just it's it's I totally I totally I think there's

[01:27:18] there's the engineering side of it there's the reality of it which I think you're doing a great job of highlighting um I just think sometimes a lot of OEMs have used it more as a crux

[01:27:30] to do that versus going full and on beves but that's kind of a different thing um no and I mean don't run admit people who are happy and love their hybrids too I met a guy the other day at a

[01:27:42] Wilco when I was picking up some supplies and he had the BMW hybrid and he was he asked me about mine he thought it was cool and then he was like yeah I've changed I think he said it for a year and

[01:27:52] like maybe got two tanks of gas which once again huge improvement and he once again at least is getting in there and trying it um my personal experience I feel like a regular BMW's expensive enough

[01:28:07] I cannot imagine how much a p-heav is going to be when something goes wrong with it but that is my thoughts and commentary on it um and my own lived experience with their combustion engine guards which for a long

[01:28:20] time they made great ones um but uh I I realized we've kind of gone over time and then some with this but I really appreciate this conversation I think is there anything else you wanted to kind of

[01:28:33] cover on level two charging or um should we look at uh maybe one final question um no I think I mean you know I'm also a fan of level one charging right for sure for sure like um you know obviously it was

[01:28:49] two quick points there right is um you know like for plug-in hybrids right if you know if you assume you can add 25 to 30 miles of range in like 10 12 hours overnight um you know I'm a big fan

[01:29:06] of like apartment complexes where you can actually put in like three times as many like smart outlet level one one 10 120 outlets versus going all in on you know level two connected charges or whatever

[01:29:20] or you can get really expensive but if you know if you've got people that are driving to work for whatever even with a B.E.V right if they can add 25 30 miles of range overnight in the

[01:29:29] apartment complex right like that that's that's yeah I think I think that's totally spot on and something we haven't we've kind of referenced but haven't really worked specifically filled out yeah I was going to say airports but airports are like ideal like if you've got car sitting in

[01:29:45] there three four five days right like it's stupid to have you know level two charging when somebody's gonna you know probably in two hours they're gonna uh replenish what they used to

[01:29:57] drive to the airport right exactly then send their blocking right so well and what i was going to say is just like the importance of having efficient B.E.Vs um and just I don't think enough people

[01:30:10] appreciate until they own one like how much faster your car charges when you have an efficient car whether that's on level one or level two even if you only charge overnight on level one

[01:30:20] that's probably going to be all you need um especially for daily driving I've done that quite a bit when I've been out and about and that's all that if that access to yeah I mean there's once again

[01:30:30] as much as I love a rivion and all those things they're gonna you can't really do that you need like a level two and that kind of goes back to your point earlier is around just like

[01:30:40] the need for efficiency versus the use case so like yeah if you're a guy that has a silver auto that toes of course is all the time totally get it and that's where you probably would

[01:30:51] plug in hyper thanks ends but we just need to have that kind of infrastructure for more efficient vehicles and uh the realization of that is one of the big advantages to a well designed and like a

[01:31:03] bevel that is kind of a clean sheet like a design and a way to be lighter more efficient and then the in-user experience is also that much better when you're not always in the best charging situation

[01:31:14] yeah no absolutely yeah I mean we've sort of focused more on sort of the charging side but there's also sort of the input to that which is which is you said is you know designing everything from

[01:31:26] you know the the aerodynamics of the vehicle to the the size and the weight of the motors and the chemistry of the battery pack and is it 800 volt what's the charging curve what's the

[01:31:41] maximum you know KW you know Hyundai and Kia get get called out by a lot of people because of their 800 volt charging systems and being able to charge it you know almost up to 350 KW

[01:31:55] and you know good charging curves and things like that right so all those factors you know uh and just the the efficiency of you know miles per kilowatt hour right that's one of my

[01:32:10] things that drives me crazy with um you know a lot of these you know pickups and and you know the hummer and stuff like that I mean they're you know they're they're almost as inefficient as a gascar

[01:32:24] I mean the battery is so big and the you know the you know the you know the you know the range you get out of the battery you know 200 plus you know kilowatt battery I think it was John Volcker I

[01:32:38] forget but I thought his hand who said that it shouldn't be a surprise that the hummer is the Hummer of EVs around the efficiency of it but I think um and I the whole 800 volt thing is a conversation

[01:32:51] to itself but I think that is a huge area where a high ending Kia really did shine and kind of focus earlier as efficiency just the the charging infrastructure but the efficiency of the car first

[01:33:04] followed by just trying to make sure you have good charging because yeah yeah and your you're coming about designing from the ground up I've spent a lot of time with with the folks at lucid

[01:33:15] motors you know I live only like 35 minutes from from their headquarters been down there a couple times been to their factory out in Arizona and you know what well they did having some struggles and and

[01:33:28] pains in scaling production and supply chain issues and now affordability issues and stuff the beauty of the lucid air is is literally everybody got on a room and designed that car

[01:33:41] together from the ground up I mean they literally designed the interior of the car and along with like the design of the motors like they literally every every piece of that car was designed

[01:33:54] for efficiency and that's why it you know it is you know roughly the most efficient you know be EV out there and you know people think it's like the battery size and stuff but no it's

[01:34:11] every piece of that car in the flow of the very expensive car but but I hope that's one of the efficiencies that you know one of the trends that we see growing going forward is not just you

[01:34:27] know I hate to pick on GM I mean GM's doing a lot of good things but but they tend to just be throwing like bigger battery packs yeah to solve the range issues instead of focusing more on like

[01:34:40] you know efficiency and things like that and it works if you're doing six figure cars but if you're trying to scale it dissolves quickly and I I completely agree on lucid I'm a huge from an

[01:34:52] engineering side of huge fan of what they're doing and I think design wise engineering design wise big fan stylistically but personal opinion but I know I know people who have them in love

[01:35:05] and swearby I'm so I think there's a lot there and I think with how much we've covered we could easily do a couple more podcasts clearly but real quickly just a wrap up I do have kind of one

[01:35:17] final question and ask everyone in that's in your opinion what are innovative ways that industry or government or both can kind of accelerate the rollout of EVs for more people. I mean I think

[01:35:32] it's you know we've we've touched on a lot of them I think you know fundamentally it's education right I mean so much of what we've talked about is just the sort of misperceptions

[01:35:48] right around you know how to charge and how much range you need and stuff like that so we you know we fundamentally you know we need a smoky the bear you know campaign or something we

[01:35:59] we need we need to you know only you can prevent forest fires like whatever it is right and I don't think I mean that gets sort of over overplayed but I mean most of it comes down to

[01:36:13] sort of the industry and the auto makers just what we've talked about producing you know more efficient more affordable vehicles because fundamentally that's what it comes down to right like you know how many people can buy a $600 iPhone versus a $200 iPhone right and so and that's kind

[01:36:30] of what we're we're we're at and we're still at the 65 to $80,000 is most EVs and so I think you know one of the things is this just I've not been a big fan of how the federal

[01:36:50] government you know incentives either the previous tax credit or the current iRah clean vehicle credit one in that as I said I think we need to incentivize it around efficiency and affordability the price you know the MSRP caps should have been should have been lower

[01:37:10] and things like that in other words let's use those sort of government design incentives to actually force the automakers to produce more efficient more affordable vehicles and you know I think that would be a big help and then again all the things we've talked about

[01:37:29] on the charging side of you know sort of education and you know ultimately you know the nevy rules around up time is going to help improve the customer experience which is is probably just you know that all the bad press is is probably obviously not not helping getting

[01:37:54] getting people to go down and buts and seats and take a test drive of an EV because they're they're afraid that the charge is not going to work right so we've kind of been our own

[01:38:05] you know we in the industry love bashing all the charging companies and how bad the charging experiences but by doing that you know we're actually not not helping the the awareness and brand

[01:38:17] for the building perception of EV so it's all of the above is what we need to do basically I think that's the correct answer fortunately or fortunately but yeah you're totally right

[01:38:30] as no silver bullet you know exactly it used to be we are bashing that there was only one or two options or EVs were too expensive and we still kind of are but now it seems to be different flavors

[01:38:44] of the month and we're all kind of working towards raising as many boats as we can with the different challenges of the industry but you know with that I just want to say thank you so much Lauren I realize

[01:38:55] this went over time but this has been a great conversation we look forward to having you back soon yeah I thought that's why I really appreciate it was a lot of fun and yeah and maybe future we can

[01:39:07] yeah we can pick a single topic and and really dive in deeply although I think we kind of did that here just on many topics exactly thank you again all right but thanks for joining us be sure to visit

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