Summary
In this Grid Connections episode, host Chase sits down with Loren McDonald, Chief Analyst at Paren, to unpack the latest National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) developments shaping the EV charging industry. They explore how recent policy shifts and federal decisions are influencing state-by-state rollouts—revealing why some states are revving forward while others tap the brakes. Loren highlights how rideshare adoption is driving DC fast charger demand and offers insights on charging deserts that still need infrastructure. They also discuss the evolving role of the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation, how reliability standards are improving under NEVI, and what rising EV adoption means for the future of long-distance travel.
Watch the full episode of this video podcast on Youtube
Takeaways
- Over 1,000 NEVI sites awarded: More than 1,000 potential fast-charging locations have been selected across 37 states, though some remain in contract negotiations.
- Political and procedural divides: Several states are pushing NEVI projects forward, while others have paused due to leadership changes or internal policy interpretations.
- High rideshare utilization: In certain urban areas, rideshare drivers already account for up to 25% of all DC fast-charger usage, a figure expected to rise further.
- Joint Office staffing cuts: Recent reductions at the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation may slow technical assistance, but do not eliminate NEVI’s allocated funding.
- Scoring rubrics matter: From site amenities to cost-sharing ratios, each state’s RFP scoring criteria can significantly impact which organizations win funding.
- Convenience store dominance: Large chains like Loves and Pilot often lead NEVI bids, creating better-lit, more reliable charging sites that improve the overall EV driver experience.
Links from the Episode
- Check out this recent episode of Tom Moloughney's State of Charge speaking with Bill Ferro, CTO of Paren.
- You can also listen to our recent interview with Bill Ferro or watch it on youtube.
- EV Charging Summit & Expo that the Paren team will be at in March.
Support or Connect with Grid Connections
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- Travel for work and looking for a card that rewards your travel needs? Earn 60,000 bonus points with either Chase Sapphire card.
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NEVI, EV charging, infrastructure, federal policy, rideshare, rural charging, electric vehicles, charging deserts, state responses, industry trends, DCFC, DC Fast Charging
00:00:05
Good morning grid connections listeners and welcome back to season six of grid
connections, the podcast where we explore all things transportation, clean energy and our
00:00:14
power grid connecting all these systems together.
00:00:16
This season we are actually upping the ante and we'll be trying our best to bring you not
one, but actually two new episodes per week.
00:00:24
We'll be covering more topics and highlighting how all of the technologies we discuss here
work together.
00:00:29
It seems like these technologies are advancing ever faster each week and that's why we're
excited to be increasing how many episodes we're bringing to you, our listeners.
00:00:38
We're excited for some of the great guests and panels we already have lined up for this
season, but please let us know who you want to hear from.
00:00:44
or even if you have just an idea for an episode, please reach out to us either on social
channels, our website, gridconnections.fm or email us at guests at gridconnections.fm.
00:00:57
Today we welcome back returning guests, Loren McDonald, the chief analyst at Paren.
00:01:02
We dive headfirst in the latest developments of National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure,
or NEVI, as most of our listeners are probably most familiar with it, including how recent
00:01:11
federal decisions and policy shifts are affecting which charging projects move forward and
which are hitting pause.
00:01:17
You'll hear Loren's insider view on how some states are proceeding full throttle while
others are pumping the brakes, and why this impacts everyone from road trip warriors to
00:01:26
ride share drivers
00:01:28
Plus we touch on evolving federal influence over EV charging.
00:01:32
Who actually holds the power to pause NEVI funds and what can still move ahead despite
ongoing changes.
00:01:38
Key takeaways for charging deserts.
00:01:40
How a delayed rollout may impact the most rural states and areas that need infrastructure
the most.
00:01:45
Plus trends in public charging from the rise in EV adoption by rideshare drivers to how
data can unlock better site selection, amenities and overall charging reliability.
00:01:55
Whether you're an industry pro, an EV enthusiast, or just curious about the ever-changing
world of electric mobility, this episode has something for you.
00:02:03
But don't keep the conversation to yourself.
00:02:06
Send this episode to at least one other person who'd find it useful as well.
00:02:10
And if you're enjoying Grid Connections, please take a moment to leave a positive review
on our podcast page.
00:02:14
It really helps make a difference.
00:02:16
Your feedback also helps us to bring you expert voices like Loren McDonald's every week.
00:02:21
With that, enjoy.
00:02:29
Loren thank you so much for coming on today.
00:02:31
I know you've been doing quite the blitz of media interviews lately.
00:02:34
Yeah, yeah, no, thanks for having me on Chase.
00:02:38
It's always a lot of fun to be on your webcast.
00:02:43
yeah, I mean, we'll probably just dive right in, but we were chatting about this before we
jumped on live that I'm a bit fried from literally 20 immediate interviews in the last 10
00:02:56
days and everything from, you know.
00:03:00
Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, CNBC Business, AP, know, down to I
did a, you know, local Colorado, Denver, Colorado TV news station and everything in
00:03:16
between.
00:03:16
And it's just not stopping, right?
00:03:19
There's just, you know, before we went live, there was some breaking news, which we'll
talk about, I'm sure.
00:03:25
But yeah, it's just, it's...
00:03:29
For me, it's second only to when Tesla laid off the 500 person supercharger team as to the
number of media requests and interviews I've done.
00:03:42
It's just sort of crazy.
00:03:46
Some people like to say, it's like, yeah, you, Loren, thank Trump and Musk for all the
attention.
00:03:53
going to say better to be busy than bored.
00:03:55
And I think what are we on only week three or we've gone into week four officially.
00:03:59
So you've got to, think what is another 200, 200 or so more to go.
00:04:04
But, it's always great to have you on.
00:04:05
We've had you on now for quite a few episodes and we've got another panel coming up with
you and the other guys on, but, uh, just in case anyone listening isn't familiar with
00:04:13
Paren and what your team's doing, which I think is just so fascinating and it's just
covering the space.
00:04:18
we'll can just share a little bit about that realm and.
00:04:21
Yeah.
00:04:21
Yeah.
00:04:22
So, yeah.
00:04:23
So, so Paren is a San Francisco based startup.
00:04:27
We're an EV charging data and analysis firm.
00:04:32
also just from hold over my business, EV adoption, which was acquired back in September.
00:04:39
And I joined at the same time as chief analyst, but really what we're doing is, you know,
we're tracking all things.
00:04:46
EV charging with this specific focus right now around fast charging.
00:04:51
So we're tracking everything from just what is all the charging infrastructure out there,
know, the number of stations and ports and hardware and growth by state, by network, et
00:05:02
cetera.
00:05:02
But really what we're about is is is helping companies understand really two things.
00:05:09
One is where they probably want to locate new chargers.
00:05:13
So we track utilization.
00:05:16
Session data reliability data all around right now more than 37 fast chargers in the
US and headed towards more of them, but in Canada soon and then secondly You know, we have
00:05:34
a lot of customers everything from the charging networks and CPOs to the automakers and
investors and other companies to help them understand kind of competitive
00:05:46
benchmark stuff.
00:05:47
So think about your charging network and you've got a location in downtown Atlanta or
whatever it is and you want to understand like are we underperforming?
00:05:56
Are we you know basically doing as well as you know the neighboring EV charging networks
or we're outperforming them and so you know that's really sort of our core.
00:06:10
Yeah help them understand is like oh do we have a
00:06:14
you know, 18 % utilization rate at our station and in a mile away competitor has a, you
know, a 24 % like what are we doing wrong?
00:06:23
Like helping them understand that.
00:06:25
And longterm, and then we can move on to the core topic is of the day is we're really
going to pipe our data into the in-car navigation of EVs in the future.
00:06:39
And so if you're driving down the highway and you, you know,
00:06:43
know you're going to have to stop in an hour or two or whatever it is to charge.
00:06:49
We'll tell you basically which charging stations you should go to based on safety,
lighting, price, availability, power levels.
00:06:59
Is it working or not?
00:07:00
Is there spaces available?
00:07:02
And is there a Chipotle next to it versus a McDonald's and the other one?
00:07:09
And not to pick on any quick service restaurants, but maybe you prefer.
00:07:13
Chipotle over McDonald's and the combination of all those factors tell you to go to
charging station A instead of charging station C.
00:07:20
So that's the long-term vision and we're getting a lot of traction towards that and a lot
of excitement and interest but right now we're just more of kind of a B2B data company
00:07:32
providing all this kind of data to companies in the industry.
00:07:36
Yeah, I really appreciate that overview because obviously what you're talking about right
now has such a large impact for what we're going to be talking about today.
00:07:43
And I think the future of what you shared and also, guess, just to call it out, we had
Bill Ferro on previously your CTO at Paren.
00:07:51
And he actually also just had a great interview with Tom Malogny.
00:07:53
I was watching a little bit earlier today just to kind of recap and get some of his
thoughts on this before today's call.
00:07:59
But I think it's really cool just to see.
00:08:01
mean, that is really what does unlock a big part of the experience to make.
00:08:05
going to electric vehicles and charging and road tripping and these things that we hear
that's such a problem actually become a much smoother and more in my own personal
00:08:17
experience, a better experience when road tripping to know where and when you're going to
charge and save over a gas station that you kind of just pull over whenever and being able
00:08:27
to be more proactive about where you choose to charge.
00:08:31
And as opposed to kind of having to figure out on the fly or even like I said, I think
it's now a better experience having that kind of knowledge when you're able to see which
00:08:39
chargers are available, which aren't when going down the road, then without having that
information, it just makes EVs in general so much more approachable.
00:08:48
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:49
just there's, there's, you know, some fascinating things going on, right?
00:08:53
Is it just, you know, do you think about, you know, a charging station, at different times
of the day?
00:09:01
So one o'clock in the afternoon versus 11 PM at night.
00:09:05
So, you know, a station that you stop at at one o'clock in the afternoon might be great
and, wonderful.
00:09:12
There's a, you know, there's a restaurant next door and it's, you know,
00:09:18
It's a lot of open space.
00:09:19
There's a little park next to it.
00:09:20
You can walk the, you know, poop the dog, you know, the kids can play, all that kind of
stuff.
00:09:26
11 o'clock at night, there might not be any lighting.
00:09:28
The restaurant might be closed.
00:09:30
So there's no restrooms.
00:09:31
You don't feel safe, right?
00:09:33
So literally, you know, that's the type of thing we're going to bring in is looking at
literally different times of the day.
00:09:39
Like a station could be highly rated at, you know, in the afternoon.
00:09:43
AM to 10 PM, could be a great resource.
00:09:45
I mean, I think we've had conversations about this before.
00:09:48
I'm probably in the kind of upper echelon of crazy EV road trippers, but yeah, there'll be
times where I'm driving at midnight one or two in the morning as part of like trying to
00:09:58
get that final stretch in for the day.
00:10:00
And you're right.
00:10:01
Like after 11 PM, it either turns from what would be a great spot to incredibly sketchy or
at the very least, somewhere that has like a reliable bathroom.
00:10:12
Yeah.
00:10:12
know the the restaurants are not open.
00:10:14
There's no restrooms.
00:10:15
There's no Wi-Fi There's like no people it's unsafe Etc and then the other thing and then
we'll move on is that's really kind of fascinating is I think you know I think we've
00:10:24
talked about this in the past that you know in the last year or so one of the single
biggest Trends in the fast charging industry has been the adoption of EVs by rideshare
00:10:35
drivers and you know uber and Lyft
00:10:38
Are really pushing it they're incentivizing the drivers.
00:10:42
There's a lot of programs and You know evi go which you know, one of the great things
about evi go being publicly traded is every quarter they they share a lot of like really
00:10:53
great metrics about their business and You know one of the things that that was in their
investor deck was that 25 % of their throughput in Q4 right?
00:11:06
Yeah q4
00:11:08
was from rideshare drivers.
00:11:09
Think about that.
00:11:10
One fourth of the electricity that they sold, basically, assuming that they charged for
all of that, you know, some of it is like through free programs and stuff, but 25 % of the
00:11:23
power dispensed was to rideshare drivers.
00:11:27
That's crazy, right?
00:11:28
And my prediction is, is, you know, in 18 months to two years, I mean, that could be, you
know, 35 % heading towards 40 % or whatever.
00:11:36
you know, and obviously it's a lot higher in like urban markets like, you know, downtown
Chicago, you know,
00:11:43
what we're talking about about time of day.
00:11:46
I know we've had this conversation, I believe before, but something we've talked about
quite a bit on the podcast is just around.
00:11:52
You will, especially like urban centers, you'll roll up to one of these, charging
locations.
00:11:57
There'll be a pretty big, line and it is partially because of sometimes the ride share.
00:12:03
Some of it's obviously you can kind of get the impacts of weather, but
00:12:07
right from 8 p.m.
00:12:08
to 8 1 p.m.
00:12:09
Maybe it drops from 32 cents to 10 cents.
00:12:12
I actually had this happen to me.
00:12:14
I was charging at a location.
00:12:16
I just I was on the phone with my wife and I was literally the only one at the charger.
00:12:20
It turned 802 and then three three EVs come around the corner.
00:12:25
I almost think it's like some sort of car group and within four minutes I think was it was
at least a 12 stall.
00:12:31
It may have been a 16 stall.
00:12:32
It went from me being the only person.
00:12:34
to being a completely packed and it was clear.
00:12:36
mean, they're really nice, but they're clearly just doing, they're mostly were right.
00:12:40
Your drivers and kind of the need for having what you see in traditional fueling where you
have commercial fueling locations and maybe making it so Uber and others have kind of the
00:12:50
private things that those drivers go there.
00:12:51
then for, public use, it's not always crack, crammed with drivers going at these certain
times to get the lower rates.
00:12:58
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:59
then, you know, one final thing on sort of the whole rideshare thing is, you know, the
fascinating thing that I just sort of share with people when I talk about this, you know,
00:13:10
sort of anecdotally, I'm sure like you, when you take Uber and Lyft, it's an electric,
it's an EV, you ask them questions and stuff.
00:13:18
And so I was asking them about, you know, where do they live in an apartment, a condo, do
they charge at home, where do they charge, know, how often, all that kind of stuff.
00:13:26
And the typical answers I'm getting is that many of these drivers, the ones who are like
sort of professionals, in other words, like this is their primary source of income.
00:13:38
They're not like teachers who do this a couple of days a week at night or weekends.
00:13:44
Some of them are charging two to three times a day, six days a week at fast charging
stations, right?
00:13:53
And my wife and I are not like you.
00:13:55
We don't.
00:13:56
You know, we don't do a lot of road trips, right?
00:13:59
So we might only use, you know, public fast chargers a couple times a year, right?
00:14:04
Then the rest of the time, you know, the rest of the time we're charging.
00:14:07
So you think about, you know, if you're, you know, EVgo, Electrify America, Tesla, you
know, whomever, filling Francis Energy, filling BP, filling the blank.
00:14:17
And you know, majority of their drivers are charging at their locations a couple of times
a year.
00:14:24
And then you have this
00:14:25
like, you 5 % group or whatever it is that are charging potentially 50 times a month.
00:14:32
Right, right.
00:14:33
So that's why you have companies like Revel out of New York that are focused now just on
building charging stations to support rideshare drivers, right?
00:14:43
So yeah, it's been a really fascinating and almost overnight switch in the industry.
00:14:51
and is helping drive utilization and profitability.
00:14:54
EVgo thinks that they're going to be break even later this year and stuff, and they
probably will be.
00:14:59
And a lot of that is going to be primarily because of a few urban locations used by
rideshare drivers.
00:15:08
But I don't know if I told you this, I think I did, but last time I flew in the Bay Area,
I get out of the airport and I used the, I think it was like Uber green or whatever they
00:15:16
call it, so you can choose the EV.
00:15:18
I get in the EV and we haven't even left the airport and the guy asked me like, hey, can I
charge?
00:15:23
And I was like, and he, it was with a little bit of a broken English accent, I'll admit.
00:15:29
So I thought he was like saying how, when you get into a lot of Ubers, you can charge.
00:15:32
And so I was kind of like, what?
00:15:34
And I looked over at the screen and it showed the projected energy rate.
00:15:38
of getting to the hotel I was staying at as 2%.
00:15:41
And I realized, no, he's literally asking me if on this trip from the airport, can we
charge?
00:15:46
And honestly, fortunately I wasn't in rush anyway, but I was just like, okay, I'm just
really curious to see how this experience is.
00:15:53
So I say yes.
00:15:54
And we stop at a charger right next to the airport for like five minutes.
00:15:59
He smokes a quick cigarette outside and then gets back and then we drive to this.
00:16:04
I was just like, what, as a rider, this was such a bizarre.
00:16:07
unexpanded someone just in the industry.
00:16:09
I was like, Oh, I want to see where this goes out.
00:16:11
What this kind of experiences.
00:16:13
Um, but yeah, for so many other people and just as someone who's trying to do this, it
really does make it really hard to kind of sometimes do it in between trips.
00:16:21
Um, and I, I don't know.
00:16:23
I there's clearly, this is clearly where the industry is going, which is good, but there's
clearly some of these logistic things, a little fine tuning that still needs to be figured
00:16:31
out.
00:16:31
and you, so there's the one you talked about, which is just, you know, ultimately the, you
know, the ride share industry probably needs to stack up, step up to the plate and build
00:16:41
dedicated charging stations, you know, and the most common, you know, location use cases
going to be near airports and stuff.
00:16:49
Why they're queuing, waiting for their rides.
00:16:50
can plug in.
00:16:52
Futures can be wireless.
00:16:53
They just pull over as they're, is there queuing up, you know, in line like taxi cabs and
stuff.
00:16:59
but and that ride experience, and then, you the impact on the non ride share drivers,
right?
00:17:07
If it starts to get to a point where, you know, you go to an, you know, eight port
charging location and, you know, seven of them are being used by ride share drivers,
00:17:17
people are not going to be happy, but yeah, maybe we can do a session in the future
entirely on that.
00:17:25
Yeah.
00:17:25
I think the next time we have the panel together, we'll have to talk about that.
00:17:28
Cause I'm sure Matt and John also have some fun takes on it.
00:17:32
So let's get into the topic of the week or I guess topics of the week.
00:17:37
Yeah.
00:17:38
Where do you want to start with NEVI and just the state of EV charging?
00:17:42
Let's let's let's start with NEVI because I think that'll take up, you know, pretty much
the entire show now that we've already wasted or not wasted, excuse me, now that we've
00:17:53
already Yeah, yeah.
00:17:56
So yeah, so let's start with with NEVI and as you know, most of your listeners, you know,
00:18:02
presumably know by NEVI, stands for the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program.
00:18:08
It was part of the IIJA, which means it was a law passed by Congress.
00:18:13
And there's a specific reason I mentioned that.
00:18:17
And, you know, so over the last couple of weeks, the Trump administration first issued an
executive order that specifically called out
00:18:29
various programs including charging programs and the NEVI program and basically pausing it
or attempting to pause it.
00:18:38
And then a week later, and I don't even remember what day it is now, I think it was
either, I think it was Tuesday or late last week, I can't even remember, I'm so fried.
00:18:52
The Federal Highway Administration issued a memo.
00:18:58
also basically saying that they are pausing the the NEVI program.
00:19:04
And that's where it gets really complicated and confusing.
00:19:10
and Sean Duffy, is the new secretary of the Department of Transportation, was yeah, it was
last Thursday.
00:19:21
Now it's all coming back to me, was on Fox Business News on Friday.
00:19:28
And it was a really insightful interview because he actually explained part of it very
clearly that yes, he and FHWA slash DOT cannot stop rescind, claw back, stop funding, et
00:19:48
cetera, in NEVI.
00:19:50
Only Congress can do that because it's a law, right?
00:19:53
So.
00:19:54
You know, there was a lot of confusion.
00:19:55
Everybody's out there saying, know, Trump can't do it if he didn't.
00:20:01
And he, he supported that.
00:20:02
He's very clear that yes, this is a law, only Congress can change it.
00:20:08
However, you know, a lot of the states posted, you know, on their websites due to the
executive order were pausing, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:16
And then the memo came out and they added that sort of thing.
00:20:20
And so they're all sort of confused, but
00:20:25
The thing that FHWA and Duffy can do is actually revise the rules of the actual execution
of the Navy program.
00:20:39
to step back and make that clear is that only Congress can basically say, we're pulling
back the, you
00:20:53
It's actually not 5 billion.
00:20:57
It's about 5.12 billion that's going to the states because there's money for the joint
office and some other programs and stuff.
00:21:06
So it's under 4.2 billion that's actually going out over four years, or excuse me, over
five fiscal years to the states.
00:21:14
So only Congress can say, nope, we're pulling that back.
00:21:20
But back in...
00:21:24
2021 So I think it was December of 2021 I AJ was passed.
00:21:28
So NEVI basically became part of the law But it wasn't until February 28th, I believe it
was the last day of February in 2023 when the final NEVI rules and requirements wreck were
00:21:48
basically published, right so
00:21:52
I like to say, you know, there's like BCAD, you know, like whatever it is, is that, you
know, this would be, I guess, the AD, I don't know, is that, you know, NEVI really didn't
00:22:03
start until let's say March 1st of 2023, because even though NEVI was program was out
there and states were starting to do things, they actually didn't know what the final
00:22:16
rules and requires.
00:22:16
They had like a template, you know, they knew it was probably going to be things like...
00:22:21
every 50 miles and for when 50 KW but they didn't know is NACS going to be required like
they didn't.
00:22:27
even, yeah, there's so much change is still happening in the industry and specific to it.
00:22:31
Yeah.
00:22:31
you know, what are like, you're to have to have credit card readers?
00:22:35
No, you only have to have contactless payment.
00:22:37
Like all of the minutiae detail.
00:22:41
In fact, sort of a funny anecdote is Ohio was the very first state to actually issue a
NEVI RFP.
00:22:51
And they did so in late
00:22:54
2022, I think it was November, October or November.
00:22:58
I used to be able to remember all of the stuff in my head, but I can't anymore.
00:23:03
And so what happened was then the rules came out and the final rules came out in late
February that had some differences of what they were assuming and had in their RFP.
00:23:15
And so they required all the companies who had submitted RFPs to resubmit them.
00:23:20
And I had one client who submitted 20 separate
00:23:24
know, site location applications.
00:23:28
you just one is a lot of work, right?
00:23:31
You know, they were not happy.
00:23:33
They had to resubmit all 20.
00:23:35
But anyway, so that sort of, you know, was when the program really started.
00:23:40
But the point of that is what can happen and what is being paused right now by Duffy and
FHWA is...
00:23:51
in essence, those rules and requirements.
00:23:54
so there's, you know, in essence, 90 day pause.
00:23:59
They're going to look and review of that, those rules and requirements of the program, and
potentially, and supposedly, they're seeking input from the industry, and will come out
00:24:12
and, you know, issue new guidance, if you will.
00:24:17
And so what's happened, and then we'll come back to what's like what...
00:24:20
could be some of those changes.
00:24:22
What's happened is...
00:24:26
The states are basically pulling their hair out.
00:24:29
They're confused.
00:24:31
They're nervous.
00:24:32
They they're not sure what to do, etc.
00:24:34
They're getting conflicting advice.
00:24:36
They're they're interpreting it differently I've talked to some of my my customers who are
companies that are applicants and that are actually negotiating contracts with several
00:24:51
states and What one customer?
00:24:55
Told me was that they're seeing a red state blue state divide So Many of the blue states
are basically saying the Navy program is not paused it can't be paused right And it was
00:25:13
very clear Duffy made it very clear on the Fox Business News interview that if there is a
contract in place We're not stopping that
00:25:25
Right?
00:25:25
Like it's a legal contract between the state and the applicant.
00:25:29
And so you can move forward.
00:25:30
So sites that are under constructions, sites that haven't even started, but there's a
contract between the state, it's approved, everything.
00:25:37
Those can all move forward.
00:25:39
And so, yeah, go ahead.
00:25:41
know what roughly that number is?
00:25:44
of so, yeah, so let's actually stop and step back and so, so 1000 sites have been awarded.
00:25:55
And that's not ports.
00:25:56
That is the actual stations that can have four or more.
00:25:59
Just to clarify.
00:26:00
Yeah.
00:26:01
number.
00:26:01
Yeah.
00:26:01
And so if you want to do ports, I don't have that number.
00:26:07
Actually, I do.
00:26:08
It's right here.
00:26:09
I did a printout in case you asked.
00:26:14
4 ports.
00:26:16
So basically, what we're seeing is the minimum is four, but we've been averaging about
4.5, actually.
00:26:24
Many of the applicants
00:26:27
We'll do six or eight.
00:26:29
Sometimes Tesla does 12.
00:26:31
Interestingly enough, we're really getting into the weeds here, but sometimes Tesla will
submit an application for a supercharger station that has 12 ports, but they're only
00:26:45
requesting NEVI funding for seven.
00:26:49
But by and large, we're seeing that in most...
00:26:57
Most of the applications and winning applications are for four, but in a state that has a
couple of dozen applications and stuff, if three or four or five sites have six, eight,
00:27:09
12, whatever it is, it sort of increases that average to about 4.5.
00:27:16
But yeah, so we're at 1 sites have been awarded.
00:27:24
across 37 states, Actually, just get it, yeah.
00:27:29
Yes, just across 37 states, and that's everything from like Rhode Island with two to I
think 90 something.
00:27:41
the fun fact with Rhode Island, they have to, but they're now going on to phase two and
they're the first of it just because physically they're, yeah, and I don't mean to jump
00:27:51
around too much or interrupt you, but it's just kind of a funny thing to call out because
of the size of it.
00:27:56
They're the only one that's actually been able to put the full allotment in.
00:27:59
Yeah, no, exactly.
00:28:00
Yeah.
00:28:00
So Rhode Island, if people know Rhode Island or driven through, it's basically Interstate
90 that goes up.
00:28:08
the interesting thing about Rhode Island is not just that they only had two, what we call
AFC sites, alternative fuel corridor sites that they had to build out according to the
00:28:19
Navy requirements.
00:28:21
They are owned by the state of Rhode Island.
00:28:26
They were two existing sites, park and ride sites, each with two charge point DC fast
chargers.
00:28:34
And so what they did was they basically added two more charges.
00:28:41
Yeah.
00:28:42
Yeah.
00:28:42
So they added two more charge point chargers to each of those two sites became NEVI
compliant and were then certified.
00:28:52
So as you said, they became the first state who was certified.
00:28:55
by the, that they had their corridor build out.
00:29:00
But yeah, but all they had to do, they only had two sites, they upgraded it.
00:29:07
And because they were owned by the Rhode Island Department of Transportation as park and
ride sites, like it was sort of easy for them to like manage the whole process and stuff
00:29:19
like that.
00:29:21
anyway, so a thousand sites have been awarded.
00:29:26
And this is where it gets a bit squishy.
00:29:30
And this is the number one sort of question I've been getting from reporters over the last
week or so is how many are under contract?
00:29:43
And what I've been telling people is my best guess is probably anywhere between 750 to
sort of 850 of those are likely under contract between the states and the applicant.
00:30:03
And I say that because what I've been seeing is based on open records requests that I've
been filing over the last couple of years that
00:30:12
While it can vary from anywhere from a month to a year for a state to complete, execute a
contract.
00:30:19
There's one client who was telling me a couple of days ago that he's still in red lines a
year later with one state, right?
00:30:27
And so the one month and the one year is outliers, right?
00:30:30
Like that's the fastest and that's the slowest.
00:30:33
But even he, my client, told me that three to four months was a good rule.
00:30:38
So he sort of confirmed what I figured out.
00:30:41
when I filtered in our database where we track the NEVI awards, I went back to like the
end of September, I used basically prior to October 1st and that was like 782 side awards.
00:30:57
And so that's kind of how I've come to that number, assuming that it takes three or four
months to be safe if you go back before that.
00:31:07
Yeah, it could be, like I said, it could be anywhere from
00:31:11
probably a low of 750 to a high of 900 and or, you know, and somewhere in there.
00:31:17
But yeah, but, but you know, it, it, potentially could be less.
00:31:24
I mean, I'm hearing that some of the States actually, you know, still didn't get approval
on some of those sites from FHWA.
00:31:31
So there's like two levels of approval.
00:31:35
But, know, my theory and assumption is, that, you know,
00:31:40
Probably three quarters of the sites have executed contracts and so they are safe, right?
00:31:49
In other words, according to what Duffy said and what we know and understand is those
sites cannot be stopped.
00:31:56
They can proceed.
00:31:59
Now, hopefully that's relatively clear to people.
00:32:03
Now here's.
00:32:04
us up to where it is right now.
00:32:07
And that's a lot that's happened really within just the last few weeks.
00:32:10
Yeah.
00:32:10
And things literally changing, you know, kind of by the day or, you you talk to different
people, hear different things.
00:32:18
And, know, as I'm sort of still, you know, I got two emails from customers this morning
telling me what's happening with their negotiations.
00:32:27
And it was actually pretty disheartening of what's happening.
00:32:32
But that's, you know, I started to talk about it.
00:32:35
But so what's happening now is, as I mentioned, is
00:32:41
The state DOT, and it's not all DOT, a lot of the states actually, it's the department,
they're departments of energy that actually are running and executing the NEVI program.
00:32:50
Several states, basically what they did is they basically, they do like an internal
agreement and say, okay, Department of Energy, you handle this.
00:33:00
You actually know electricity better than we do.
00:33:04
We know how to build roads and bridges, you know, so.
00:33:07
So in California example, it's the California Energy Commission.
00:33:11
They actually had to pass not a law but a had a vote in a board had to invoke DOT giving
permission to the CEC to run it.
00:33:22
Maine is the same thing.
00:33:23
It's actually the Maine Department.
00:33:25
I forget what it's called.
00:33:26
Maine Energy Efficiency, Rhode Island.
00:33:29
It's the Rhode Island DOE Department in combination with the DOT.
00:33:34
Colorado's the same, it's the color, you know, so any rate.
00:33:40
What's happening and what one customer told me was that he's seeing this sort of red
state, blue state divide.
00:33:47
So in the contract negotiations and conversations that they're having with either the DOE
or DOT in blue states is most of them are saying, we're moving forward, we're not
00:34:00
stopping.
00:34:00
Like it's very clear.
00:34:04
We do not have to pause.
00:34:05
do not have to stop.
00:34:06
The rules and the laws are in our favor.
00:34:09
This can't be stopped.
00:34:11
We've got contracts.
00:34:13
We're moving forward, right?
00:34:15
Whereas a lot of the red states are going, whoa.
00:34:21
This is paused.
00:34:23
We're told, can't do anything.
00:34:25
So we're going to be safe and conservative.
00:34:27
And you don't know if it's people down in the corner office or in the Capitol or
necessarily the attorney's general's That's always a hard one to remember where to put the
00:34:40
S.
00:34:44
Who's telling them?
00:34:45
But yeah, we're seeing this sort of divide where
00:34:49
Literally states, know next to each other or whatever are interpreting this differently
and some are just just pausing They're saying we're not doing anything And there's there's
00:34:59
also kind of a third group.
00:35:01
I won't I won't name names of states because some of it is not public but there's one very
Well, I'll call best practice state that was out there very early and and and doing quite
00:35:14
well that is in
00:35:18
round of our if in one of their their you know non first rounds there in one of their
later rounds and They're continuing to score application So it was opened then closed the
00:35:32
round of RFPs and they're scoring the the applications But they said weren't they're not
going to announce who the winners are until like the dust settles and stuff like that so,
00:35:42
you know the point being is some states are you know,
00:35:47
slowing down some states are just kind of continuing full speed ahead maybe just not
saying things publicly and some are just you know I won't mean names Florida and Wisconsin
00:36:00
and Missouri
00:36:03
Well, that's what I was going to ask because there were the ones that were just had
abandoned it, never really even got in the race to begin with.
00:36:09
And now you have that kind of shrinking again with these blue states.
00:36:14
So roughly, are we talking about 15, 20 states that are moving forward or?
00:36:20
So, well, so let's, yeah, so let's unpack that, and I was sort of joking, but very serious
when I called out those three states.
00:36:29
So they're out of the 50 states, and just always, sometimes people say Puerto Rico and
District Columbia is not a state, right?
00:36:38
So just for the record, I use states as the broad term that also includes two non-states
which are part of this program, which is Puerto Rico and District.
00:36:49
Columbia.
00:36:50
So there's actually 52 government entities, right?
00:36:55
And those two actually have issued awards and stuff.
00:36:58
But out of the 52, there are still nine states that haven't even issued a first round NEVI
RFP.
00:37:08
And they're not exclusively plain states, but most of them are up.
00:37:16
up in that area, Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, et cetera, but there's also a few in the
South, like South Carolina, Florida, back in the Midwest, Missouri and stuff like that.
00:37:30
I'm missing a couple, but.
00:37:36
They, yeah, so like Missouri and South Carolina sent out emails, I don't know, week ago or
a couple days ago saying, due to the executive order and the FHWA memo, we're pausing.
00:37:51
And, you know, I've lived and breathed this for like three years and it sort of made me
laugh, right?
00:37:57
Because it's like, what are you pausing?
00:38:00
You haven't freaking done anything.
00:38:03
Now that's a bit...
00:38:04
of zero is still zero.
00:38:05
It's a bit harsh because South Carolina has done like, you know, 20 seminars and, and, you
know, public outreach and they, they do meetings and things like that.
00:38:18
They hired a consultant to build a website.
00:38:21
They came up with a brand name for the, but they actually haven't still like done much on
the RFP side.
00:38:30
and so, yeah, you know, it's, it's unclear.
00:38:33
mean, with Florida.
00:38:35
It's very clear that it was driven by politics because they said so.
00:38:40
They came out, they built a website.
00:38:42
They literally built a website bashing EVs and the Navy charging program and lambasted
Biden and the non-EV mandate mandate and Navy programs and stuff like that.
00:39:01
And Wyoming was always not excited about the Navy.
00:39:08
because as we've talked about, like that's a state that could use it so badly, especially
when you're doing big road trips.
00:39:13
and yellow, like Yellowstone and stuff like that.
00:39:16
And they had some, you know, not great negotiation with FHWA.
00:39:20
They asked for a bunch of exemptions to that 50 mile requirement of the program.
00:39:27
They wanted to put them in some different areas.
00:39:30
And actually at some level, I think they actually were right.
00:39:34
They were an example of where there probably should have been.
00:39:38
more flexibility.
00:39:39
They wanted to put them out all like near Yellowstone, which sort of makes sense, not so
much like in other places where there's probably be less traffic.
00:39:53
yeah, so some of the states were already either intentionally for political reasons or
just business reasons, lack of prioritization, not moving on this.
00:40:05
And so this was sort of like a dream come true for them because then they could just say,
all right, until somebody tells us we have to do this thing, right.
00:40:14
We're just going to, we're just going to sort of, sort of pause and stuff.
00:40:17
But yeah.
00:40:18
And so, you know, you think about, mean, there are 104 companies that have received, been
awarded one or more of these sites, right.
00:40:31
And there's, you know, there's several companies that have won, you know,
00:40:35
like 30, 40 or more.
00:40:38
You Francis Energy is, you know, 125, I think, and Tesla's 99 and, you know, and Pilot
and, and Loves are in the like 50, 60, 70, 80.
00:40:49
Actually, I think is Pilots now like 98.
00:40:53
I think they're right behind Tesla.
00:40:56
Again, I used to have all these numbers memorized, but you know, I can't.
00:41:00
once again, that episode with Bill and Tom, they break down really good numbers and kind
of have that.
00:41:05
But you're right.
00:41:05
It is really interesting when they show the top ones.
00:41:10
There you go.
00:41:11
But it's you're right.
00:41:13
It's like Francis energy and the Tesla.
00:41:14
And then right below that, you start getting into like the traditional truck stops,
really, and other kind of like fueling stations are obviously making a big move and have
00:41:23
really started moving into this within the past year or so.
00:41:26
And
00:41:27
I said, I did.
00:41:28
actually printed it out.
00:41:29
could have looked.
00:41:30
122 for Francis, 99 for Tesla, 97 for loves, and 58 for pilot.
00:41:40
But yeah, and so.
00:41:41
and a couple others are right behind that.
00:41:44
Yeah, QuickTrip is at 38 and one in three states.
00:41:48
yeah, mean, QuickTrip is, I know we're sort of bouncing around here a bit, Chase, but
yeah, mean, QuickTrip is a great example of...
00:42:01
You know, depending on your perspective, either it shows kind of the role, part of the
role and value and success of the NEVI program, or you might think it's, you know, it's a
00:42:18
poor use of taxpayer funds, right, depending on how you think about this.
00:42:22
But, you know, QuickTrip is a Midwestern, it's Wisconsin-based...
00:42:30
convenience store chain and they're they're actually like They're like part of people's
family like it's it's an employee-owned thing It's like voted every year by USA Today is
00:42:43
having the best food of Any convenience store chain like they won this thing like several
years in a row And they they're typically out in like rural, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota
00:42:55
you know, they're starting to expand into other states and you know, they
00:43:00
They literally are, they're not like a typical convenience store.
00:43:05
They're literally more like supermarkets because it like the nearest, you the anecdote is
that the nearest Walmart is like an hour away, right?
00:43:17
And so they literally do their weekly shopping, not at, know, Piggly Squiggly or Safeway
or whatever it is, right?
00:43:25
They go to QuickTrip and buy their...
00:43:28
that's actually a really great call up because that was something I've seen on quite a few
of the road trips I've done is like, yeah, you're right.
00:43:34
Quick trip, Maverick, a lot of these, what you kind of think is like fueling or gas
station chains.
00:43:40
I remember a couple of times, no, you're totally right.
00:43:43
Like I remember a couple of times I would be, because they had some superchargers along, I
think it was I-80 and they were at Mavericks and a couple of places like that.
00:43:51
I remember I'd get in line at Mavericks and I hear the people ahead of me talking with
the.
00:43:56
actual salesperson kind of behind the register.
00:44:00
And at first I'm not really paying attention.
00:44:01
I think they're talking about like, Oh, what's the price on this or like trying to buy
something else.
00:44:05
And then I realized they're talking about like the last night's high school football game.
00:44:10
And it's like, and I was like, okay, this is a whole different kind of experience.
00:44:14
And you're totally right.
00:44:15
I mean, I mean, it's in some ways it might be a little dark that like a gas station, this
kind of thing is like, and it kind of gives a whole different thing that we don't really
00:44:23
talk about on this.
00:44:24
podcast but like food deserts and these other things where they are these really critical
kind of infrastructure for some of these more remote rural parts all over the country.
00:44:32
But I did kind of want to take a step back just kind of given to now the point we've got
we kind of discussed where things are there's a other topics I'm sure we want to cover but
00:44:43
two things I wanted to talk with you now that we're kind of at this point was one, in our
conversations we've really talked a lot about how NEVI's evolved.
00:44:52
And especially at the beginning, one of the themes we kind of had discussed was the fact
that when you looked at the evolution and rollout of a lot of DC fast charging companies
00:45:05
and scale that in some ways, like NEVI was actually slowing things down because now some
of these companies were kind of taking a step back and trying to get some of the federal
00:45:17
money to help.
00:45:19
make the business case for installing in some of these locations for chargers and stuff
like that.
00:45:25
And it was really interesting how it kind of did get political where that for a long time
people were saying there were only eight charging stations that had been built.
00:45:33
And now as we've kind of talked about it really was kind of a logarithmic thing that's
once it started kicking off.
00:45:37
Yeah for a while there's only quite a few and now there's hundreds and now there's going
to be more than that.
00:45:42
But looking back now kind of at the NEVI program what it's been and where it's going like
00:45:48
How do you still feel that way?
00:45:51
do you think just given the size of the industry and where it was, like that was kind of a
necessary thing.
00:45:56
in the scheme of things, what was it?
00:45:57
Maybe six months it slowed stuff back or kind of reflecting back on that.
00:46:02
How do you think of, how do you approach that idea of like NEVI at first was kind of
slowing down the progress we're seeing and what the greater impact actually was to the EV
00:46:10
charging community.
00:46:11
yeah.
00:46:11
mean, I'm not sure how much it may have actually slowed the industry down.
00:46:17
What I saw was when NEVI first started and I launched my NEVI database and I started
getting customers subscribing to it and talking to them.
00:46:32
What a lot of them, their initial attitude was, woohoo, free money, right?
00:46:39
Like they were excited, right?
00:46:40
We're gonna get 80 % of the charging station that we're planning to put at the quick trip
or the, I mean, that's not the, the sheets, the wah-wah, like next to the hotel.
00:46:54
Like we're gonna go build these out there and we're gonna get 80 % of our costs.
00:47:02
taken care of and this is gonna be great.
00:47:04
Now we just have to figure out like where to put them, you know, to meet the 50 mile, one
mile, all the requirements and is there a power there and all that kind of stuff.
00:47:12
And so, you know, again, I'm not sure how much it slowed things down, but people had to
sort of look at locations and things sort of differently because they couldn't just say.
00:47:27
you know, like if, let's say you're a Circle K or somebody like that, right?
00:47:31
You couldn't just go, okay, here's our plan.
00:47:35
You know, we're gonna roll them out in, you know, California, New York, Colorado, you
know, like high adopting states.
00:47:43
You actually had to look at who's issuing an RFP and do our stores actually, are they
located on the corridor?
00:47:53
within one mile and meet all the requirements, is there power there, you all that kind of
stuff.
00:47:59
they had to be, they had to factor in like all these different sort of elements to see if
they actually had a location.
00:48:08
If they were like a retailer or something like Pilots and Love and Circle K, et cetera.
00:48:12
If they were, you know, if they were just a deployment company, then sort of the world was
their oyster, right?
00:48:19
But then they had to go out and find, you know, a hotel or a
00:48:23
you know, supermarket or a shopping mall or whatever, negotiate with them, get that in
place and then do it.
00:48:29
But, but to your point, what, what I, what I did see was after there was several kind of
states and they went through the process, what a lot of companies started to realize was,
00:48:45
I may not win.
00:48:47
I have competition.
00:48:49
They're like.
00:48:49
feel like it did slow down, but it was a temporary, like it was like a six month period
and then kind of the realization of what was required and like the reality of it's kind of
00:48:59
set in, it's like people kind of just realized, okay, we'll keep going for this, but we
might have to just continue doing our own thing anyway.
00:49:05
Well, well, well, that's exactly it.
00:49:08
What, what the, you know, what, what the words are that I use in a lot of my customers
said is, you know, is, is NEVI sort of very quickly became a nice have, you know, not a
00:49:20
must have.
00:49:20
Right.
00:49:21
And so I think there was just, there was this period of maybe early on of like six months
or something where they actually had to go through the application and wards awards
00:49:32
process to see what that was like.
00:49:35
the competitors were and sort of understand how much, what I like to say is the LOE versus
the ROI.
00:49:47
What is the level of effort versus the return on investment of this?
00:49:51
And then they naturally had experience and track record of doing some of these things and
they started to realize, oh, actually we proposed a 20 % match, which is the
00:50:06
NEVI minimum requirement, but company X who we were up against for that same corridor
actually submitted an application with a 35 % match.
00:50:18
And they've done a thousand charging stations and put them in the ground and we've only
done 50.
00:50:25
You know, we partnered with a supermarket and they
00:50:33
partnered with a convenience store chain that's open 24 hours with wifi, restrooms, better
lighting, a pull through, like, you know, they started to understand the competitive
00:50:45
construct of this and what it's gonna take to win.
00:50:50
And so then, yeah, so then a lot of companies just like, okay, we're know, we're gonna
continue applying, we're just gonna be more strategic, more methodical.
00:51:01
And we might have to like change some things right we might we might need to add next
connectors where we weren't planning before some locations we might need to you know
00:51:11
include pull through lanes like Louisiana where it's the Fisherman's capital of the world
and they need boat and they have boats and trailers so they you know and and lot of things
00:51:21
like that and so it yeah, it's sort of pivoted but then it it sort of hit hit its rhythm
and you know
00:51:29
People now kind of, they then got their methodologies down.
00:51:35
They basically got their template for their applications and they knew how to do it and it
was just sort of rinse and repeat.
00:51:44
That's actually a really interesting point.
00:51:46
Kind of what led to its evolution and its impact was kind of a change in strategy and
essentially them kind of seeing what's actually getting implemented going from paper and
00:51:57
theory to practice.
00:51:59
Because one of the things I've heard and I kind of get this sentiment but what is really
interesting now is like you, I guess I'll say it and that's I know some people in the
00:52:09
industry who are kind of like you know with these changes to NEVI
00:52:12
It's kind of unfortunate, but you started seeing a lot of people winning bids who, like
you said, maybe only had a couple or maybe didn't really have the experience to be doing
00:52:24
this and doing this long term.
00:52:26
And so there have been kind of, and to be honest with you, since I've kept in falling
space now for two decades, as crazy it seems, I don't really think this is as nearly as
00:52:36
big of an issue with NEVI as it was for like, for those who are listening, familiar with
the West coast electric highway.
00:52:42
those ones that are put in are just garbage.
00:52:45
I hate to be so blunt, but it's just, I've never had a good experience with them and other
people have verified my anecdotes and experience, but it's just interesting.
00:52:57
That's on a whole nother scale, another level, but it's interesting because we're seeing
like, like your numbers show.
00:53:03
It's like, it's kind of the name, like we have Tesla and then it's like the traditional
names we know are now the ones that are winning.
00:53:08
It kind of flew in the top.
00:53:10
But there was kind of some realizations by those in the industry.
00:53:13
kind of like, you know, it did let in a few people trying to get in this money that maybe
didn't have maybe the experience or should be like winning or kind of being in this fight.
00:53:23
I don't know.
00:53:24
I'm kind of curious on your thoughts about that and what those outcomes have been.
00:53:28
heard that I also like, I've received comments from people on some of my LinkedIn posts
when I show like who the the the top winners are and stuff like that.
00:53:38
And they're like, you know, like, it's it's the usual suspects.
00:53:43
It's it's sort of the big guys like, is this a really good thing?
00:53:47
And, you know, what I explained to him is a couple things.
00:53:51
One is that
00:53:54
You know, the reason Tesla and Francis and Loves and Pilot and some of these other
companies have won so many awards is A, they've actually submitted applications in 10, 15,
00:54:12
20, 25, 30 states and in some cases, multiple rounds of RFPs within states.
00:54:22
Whereas, you know,
00:54:23
and I'll just use a common sort of anecdote of Bob's EV Deployment Company in Podunk,
Iowa.
00:54:37
They're only going to submit applications in Iowa, probably.
00:54:41
Maybe Minnesota, right?
00:54:43
So my point being, when you look at the numbers of it showing, there's like the Pareto
principle of the 80-20 rule of like,
00:54:51
There's like 10 companies that have won a majority of it.
00:54:54
It's like, well, look at who they are.
00:54:56
Like most of them are national companies that have submitted applications in like a ton of
states and therefore the math works.
00:55:05
They've won a lot.
00:55:07
Secondly, they have experience.
00:55:10
And so when each of the states are scoring them with their scoring rubrics on things like
everything from amenities and cost to experience and things like that,
00:55:21
They typically do well, at least on the experience side.
00:55:29
Sometimes they don't do so well.
00:55:30
Like sometimes Tesla, as an example, crushes it.
00:55:35
They have the lowest cost.
00:55:36
They have the most experience.
00:55:37
But maybe they've partnered with a strip mall somewhere.
00:55:44
it's like.
00:55:44
back to what we're talking about, like that experience from like, sure, eight to five PM,
it might be totally fine.
00:55:50
But in the greater scheme of thing, and in this rubric especially.
00:55:53
the interesting thing that I've seen, so we track and we have a table where I track and
compare all the states and the RFPs across dozens and dozens of both elements of the RFP
00:56:06
and how they score it.
00:56:08
And site amenities is almost always the highest category in scoring a rubric, which
meaning you can get the most points.
00:56:19
It's typically anywhere from 20 to 35 % of the points that you can get.
00:56:25
Whereas cost is usually third or fourth, right?
00:56:28
And team is typically second or something like that.
00:56:32
so, yeah, and so, but then like to your point, I mean, there are, we're not gonna name
names, but there are certainly, there have been some companies, you know, where maybe you
00:56:46
scratch your head a little bit of why.
00:56:49
why they've been awarded and why they won and we'll probably never know why.
00:56:55
But I file open records requests and when I can get them, I get the actual scores and can
see the actual applications and things like that.
00:57:07
And so you can see what's going on.
00:57:09
And when you have the scores, you can see.
00:57:14
potentially why they won.
00:57:16
mean, I'll give you sort of an example.
00:57:17
Again, I'm not going to name names, but no, these are two national companies.
00:57:27
One, yeah, one a convenience store chain and one a CPO, charging network slash CPO, that
both were awarded, you know, a couple of sites in a state.
00:57:45
and ended up with their total score being pretty close.
00:57:49
But when you looked at, pulled back the leaves, and looked at it, one of them had a really
high score on like their team and experience category.
00:58:02
yeah, and then the other one had...
00:58:13
But and low on cost, the other one had a really high score on amenities because they were
like convenience store chain and stuff like that.
00:58:25
And they scored high on cost because I think they submitted like a 40 % match or whatever
it is.
00:58:36
I may have gotten that.
00:58:37
that math wrong, but the point being is like that you sort of look at the levers like you
see on an equalizer.
00:58:42
If anybody's old enough to remember equalizers of your music.
00:58:48
Right, right.
00:58:49
But, but, but it's sort of like that, right?
00:58:52
Where you had a company that did really well on their experience, not so well on the cost,
but another one did really well on their cost and really well on the amenities and low in
00:59:04
experience.
00:59:05
And, know, and, but the score is basically added up about the same, right?
00:59:12
And so they each won in sort of separate corridor areas and stuff like that.
00:59:16
But so, you know, the point being that I always tell people is there are multiple ways to
win, right?
00:59:24
Because these scoring rubrics can be, they can be 100 points, 200 points, 1, 2.
00:59:32
Those are typically the...
00:59:33
the scoring totals I've seen.
00:59:36
you know, but then, you know, so instead of one state, you might get 20 points for the
experience category.
00:59:42
In another state, it might be 200 points for that same category.
00:59:45
But the point being is like, you have the ability to increase your chance of winning by,
you know, moving some things around.
00:59:55
Like, so maybe we, maybe we.
00:59:57
that if anyone's listening to this and they are trying to win bids, they need to reach out
to you in paren as a freebie, kind of a cheap, cheap layup to you on that.
01:00:08
But, I, I, I want to be respectful of your time because I realized we are kind of hitting
the hour mark and I really appreciate all this kind of recapping not only just what's
01:00:17
happened the last few weeks, but a lot, a lot that's been unpacked with the history of it.
01:00:22
And I think
01:00:23
Before we go, I would love to just kind of quickly go over, you even shared that there was
some breaking news as this saga's unrolled and maybe just your thoughts of where you see
01:00:32
NEVI going.
01:00:33
And then we can always confirm those the next time we talk soon.
01:00:37
yeah, yeah, and I do want to make sure that, you know, we have a few minutes just to
educate your consumers on both the positives and potentially the weaknesses of the Navy
01:00:51
program, right?
01:00:51
Because there's a lot of stuff that I've learned over the last year, especially I've
probably done 100 media interviews with reporters.
01:00:58
And most of them, there's so much they don't know.
01:01:01
And by extension, I uncovered even people in the industry.
01:01:05
don't know a lot of the aspects of the NEVI program and what its role and value is.
01:01:10
But yeah.
01:01:11
shocked at how many people think, well, why is Tesla so popular?
01:01:15
I mean, everyone else makes hybrids.
01:01:17
I still hear that.
01:01:18
mean, but I mean, but especially even to exactly what you're talking about, the niche of
the NEVI world and fast charging.
01:01:25
what do mean it doesn't have a gas engine?
01:01:28
Yeah.
01:01:28
No, totally.
01:01:29
You know, but anyway, so the sort of the breaking news is was that on Thursday was today,
yeah, Thursday, February 13th.
01:01:46
Yeah.
01:01:48
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:49
So yeah, I guess I need to run out to the greeting card store after this.
01:01:54
But that.
01:01:57
probationary employees of the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation were dismissed
yesterday.
01:02:08
And so not all employees of the Joint Office, and for those people listening that may not
be familiar with the Joint Office, it was basically an entity that was created sort of
01:02:21
under IRA and the program to basically work.
01:02:27
between the Department of Energy and the Department of Transportation because really
that's when we're talking about EV charging infrastructure.
01:02:34
It's both the transportation infrastructure and it's the energy stuff, right?
01:02:39
kind of, and both sides know some things and not other things.
01:02:43
So the joint office actually was, I think, actually a really good idea and made a lot of
sense of like, let's bring these people together and they're sort of the glue.
01:02:54
But plus they took and...
01:02:55
They worked on like the NAICS requirements.
01:02:57
They're working on a lot of the technical specs, the payment stuff.
01:03:01
They're working on, you know, cybersecurity.
01:03:06
You know, they're working on like trying to solve a lot of the fundamental problems that
you and I and most of your listeners are aware of.
01:03:14
Like there still are a lot of challenges in this industry.
01:03:17
But at any rate, so yeah, so apparently on Thursday, again, the joint office was not shut
down.
01:03:25
But a large number of employees who were probationary, they were maybe on loan.
01:03:32
There's some employees that worked for the National NREL.
01:03:38
I always forget it.
01:03:41
Renewable Energy Laboratory.
01:03:42
Yes, thank you.
01:03:45
So some people had worked for them and then moved over and stuff like that.
01:03:49
And so those people, a lot of those people lost their jobs.
01:03:54
And some people maybe took the buyout.
01:03:59
So yeah, it's not good news that a lot of great people are out there on the streets now.
01:04:08
And we're doing sort of really, really great things and stuff.
01:04:13
And the net effect of it is, again, it sounds like I've had this confirmed.
01:04:19
It has not been shut down, but it looks like it's.
01:04:22
significantly depleted from a resource and expertise factor.
01:04:27
And so that's going to further like cause issues with the states because a lot of the
states relied on the joint office for helping them with technical questions and issues and
01:04:40
things like that.
01:04:42
yeah, not not great news there.
01:04:45
But yeah.
01:04:46
And then there's still I haven't seen any specific
01:04:54
lawsuits yet from whether it's it's states or associations or you know companies You know
like the ones we've we've mentioned file lawsuits There was a number of states filed a
01:05:09
lawsuit Restraining I forget what it's called our tea.
01:05:15
I'm blanking on what it's called, but last week, but that was related to the
01:05:21
the overarching Trump funding pause, right?
01:05:27
And so it's not clear how that applies specifically to Nevy.
01:05:31
But my presumption is that some of the associations that represent state DOTs and DOEs and
things like that and different groups are probably working on lawsuits and things like
01:05:47
that.
01:05:48
And this will go to court.
01:05:49
You know, I'm almost surprised it hasn't already, but my assumption is that soon the pause
will be unpaused.
01:05:57
But you know, you never know.
01:05:59
yeah, so it's just craziness, it's uncertainty, it's chaos, which is ultimately is the
purpose of this, right?
01:06:10
The purpose of all of this is, yeah, we know we can't actually stop it, but we can.
01:06:16
we can cause pain and confusion and slow it down.
01:06:22
they're succeeding at that.
01:06:23
And the other, the others just sort of final point on that, Chase is I did a media
interview last week where I predicted that.
01:06:35
while whatever pause attempts happen, it's actually going to have minimal impact on the
number of chargers that are going to go in the ground, right?
01:06:45
Because as you said, it's like, you know, my prediction is that in 2025, there'll probably
be around 16 new DC fast charging ports opened in the U.S.
01:06:58
Now, depending on what happens with the pause and all that stuff,
01:07:02
Anywhere from maybe a thousand to two thousand of those could be NEVI funded.
01:07:08
But the point being it's like a small percentage that know, Ionna and Walmart and BP pulse
and Tesla and EV go and electrify these companies are like building.
01:07:21
Yeah, full steam ahead.
01:07:22
Right.
01:07:23
And so yeah, so it's it's not going to have a significant impact on numbers.
01:07:29
What it is going to have the impact.
01:07:31
is on is where they go, right, which is filling out those charging deserts.
01:07:37
And that's unfortunate.
01:07:38
And the ironic thing is, is that if any of that is slowed down, it's going to most
directly and disproportionately affect the Trump voter base, which is, you know, people
01:07:52
out in rural areas and in the South and the, you know, the Northern Plains states and
stuff.
01:07:57
So it's rather, rather ironic.
01:08:00
But
01:08:02
But yeah, so it's—and the other thing that I mentioned is that—and we're already seeing
this.
01:08:09
We're seeing headlines saying, you know, Trump has stopped the building of charging
stations in the U.S.
01:08:17
I don't
01:08:19
he hasn't stopped it, right?
01:08:21
we could easily do like a podcast series each hour long about the how bad the takes and
titles and headlines have been about the EV space and even charging right now has been.
01:08:32
Yeah.
01:08:32
so somebody in the charging industry commented on one of my LinkedIn posts.
01:08:36
She says, my God, this is exactly what happened.
01:08:39
I had a call with my mother.
01:08:41
You know, she's in the charging industry.
01:08:43
had a call.
01:08:44
She goes, yeah, Trump killed the build out of EV charging program.
01:08:48
Why would anybody buy an EV now?
01:08:51
And it's like, you know, was sort of like, I was talking to the reporter or I initially
predicted that.
01:08:59
And I was like, good news, bad news.
01:09:02
Sort of the good news from my perspective was I was right.
01:09:04
I predicted what would happen.
01:09:06
The bad news is I was right.
01:09:07
exactly.
01:09:08
You know, I mean, this is a whole different thing altogether, but just kind of speaking of
misnomers and...
01:09:17
ineffective titling of things.
01:09:19
I am very curious to see.
01:09:21
Obviously the thing that's kind of been the news the last 48 hours was the Tesla armored
EV thing.
01:09:27
And then it kind of got some news and they renamed it.
01:09:29
And then the other context that seems to be left out of all these stories is awarded in
December under Biden.
01:09:36
Now they've said they're not doing it either way.
01:09:37
But when I read that, obviously a lot of journalists like, my God, here's something we can
get on Tesla.
01:09:43
And my first immediate reaction was like, I bet you
01:09:45
10 to one, this was just some poor guy in some federal things like EV, Tesla, like just a
line item and wrote Teslas, because I've seen that happen so many times even at
01:09:55
dealerships.
01:09:55
Kind of going back to what I'm talking about, like Tesla's a hybrids, right?
01:09:58
Or just, it's kind of like referring to tablets as iPads or tissues as Kleenex.
01:10:04
Like I've seen that happen so many times.
01:10:05
We'll see if it's different, but it's like that kind of thing where it's just.
01:10:09
It's it's it's I mean, it's great that you mentioned that because it's it's from a
political perspective.
01:10:15
It was sort of the flip right where and I saw a lot of like posts on on Facebook from from
people or like lambasting, you know, Trump and Musk and all this kind of stuff.
01:10:27
And when I first saw the first article, I'm wait a minute.
01:10:30
It's like mid February like
01:10:33
This was probably done several months ago, right?
01:10:39
And, you know, and then, like you said, like during the course of like, you know, 12, 18,
24 hour news cycle, it starts to come, oh yeah, this was awarded, you know, before, but
01:10:50
everybody just jumped on, you know, one side of the aisle, as we like to say, jumped on,
you know, the evilness of this.
01:11:00
And yeah, and then it turned out it was like, oh, yeah.
01:11:03
was awarded before maybe.
01:11:07
I mean, maybe they did get a deal.
01:11:09
Maybe it is kind of help move Cybertruck sales or something.
01:11:11
And maybe we'll seeing Cybertruck's running around with rail guns on the back of them, but
I'm not expecting it anytime soon.
01:11:21
Loren we've talked about a lot of different topics around NEVI and just the state of EV
charging and maybe people listening.
01:11:27
I feel like there's so much news that's kind of negative, but I know both of us, even
though we can kind of have a great cloud above our heads are now overall are optimistic.
01:11:36
And so I'm sure there's a lot that you are seeing and thinking about moving forward and
just like some of the positive things that come out of NEVI and would love to hear some of
01:11:44
that.
01:11:45
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the sort of the, you know, the headlines and
negativity we many of us have read over the last year or so is, you know, very few
01:11:59
chargers have been built for the $5 billion and that type of thing.
01:12:02
Well, the reality is, right, it's actually there's, you know, like 58.
01:12:07
the stations that have been opened and it's the cost of 32 million.
01:12:12
So, you know, first we've got to get the numbers right.
01:12:15
And the cost is actually pretty competitive to what we're seeing out there normally.
01:12:20
But, you know, the thing that I really want to sort of stress that a lot of people may not
understand or be aware of is that the first and fundamental role and value of NEVI is not
01:12:34
like...
01:12:34
getting to that infamous 500 sort of number goal that Biden set out.
01:12:42
NEVI is a strategic program about putting them where they're not.
01:12:49
NEVI is a program about filling out those charging deserts.
01:12:52
We talked about going out to Yellowstone and upstate New York and rural Alabama and like.
01:13:01
Out there, those stretches, like we're all used to those signs on the interstates that
say, next gas, 32 miles, next gas, 40 miles.
01:13:11
And that was sort of the art and science behind the every 50 miles and one mile from the
highway is that people are comfortable with and understand that there needs to be sort of
01:13:25
an option for their bladder and everything else and food.
01:13:30
sort of every every X number of miles and you know the 50 was a pretty good thing and so
the first thing about NEVI is again it's it's it's not about like putting in hundreds of
01:13:42
thousands of chargers it's probably only going to put in by my estimate eight or nine
thousand fast charging ports in the first phase of NEVI the corridor phase but it's going
01:13:51
to put them where Electrify America, EVgo, Tesla, etc.
01:13:57
historically haven't been putting them.
01:13:59
They're going to put them out there in those rural areas.
01:14:03
And it's a chicken, it's solving the chicken and the egg thing, right?
01:14:07
Because the charging networks are not putting them out there because there isn't yet a lot
of EV traffic, right?
01:14:12
And EV drivers aren't driving on those highways because there aren't EV chargers.
01:14:17
Right.
01:14:19
Yeah.
01:14:21
Yeah.
01:14:23
So the first just sort of positive point I really want to make is
01:14:29
This is not about numbers.
01:14:30
It's not about like speed necessarily.
01:14:33
It's about getting them in where we give consumers who are on the fence about considering
an EV confidence that they can go to Yellowstone.
01:14:42
They can go visit their grandma or aunt Betty in, you know, three states over out in the
middle of rural Iowa.
01:14:49
And there's actually several charging stations that are open, working and available,
right?
01:14:54
That's the first thing.
01:14:55
But the second thing that...
01:14:57
doesn't get talked a lot about is that, you recall, and we've talked a lot about this, and
when you had Bill Ferro on, you talked a lot about is, we've gone through a period where
01:15:09
reliability was a massive problem and black eye for the industry.
01:15:16
Remember, we through this period where the headlines in the industry for months were about
25 % of all fast chargers are not working at any given moment, right?
01:15:26
You know, the horror stories on YouTube videos and social media and stuff about just not
working chargers.
01:15:34
And while NEVI is not a rule of requirement and law that applies to all fast chargers,
it's had a like de facto, you know, sort of sidebar effect, which is, you know, the, the
01:15:52
four 150 KW charging ports, right?
01:15:57
being able to charge at a minimum of 150 for all four cars at once and the 97 % uptime,
which many of us think is a kind of a low bar, but it's the first time we've had actual
01:16:13
accountability and they bar, exactly, right?
01:16:16
And so what's happened is even though the station X by charge point operator Y
01:16:26
is putting in a location that's not NEVI There's sort of an expectation that it'll be at
least 150, that'll at least be four, if not six or eight or 12 chargers.
01:16:39
And it's probably going to be 350 KW, not 150.
01:16:45
And that it's going to work.
01:16:49
So I think.
01:16:51
I think that is a good reflection to look back and you're totally right.
01:16:54
It really wasn't that long ago that we were concerned you'd show up and it was one even
there sometimes the right location to it'll even work and then three.
01:17:05
Yeah, yeah, it's in a not halfway sketchy place or anything else or slow D rates stops
after a few minutes of plugging it in.
01:17:15
so I think, again, it's not a law that's applied to non-Navy, but it made all boats rise
in the Bay, as the old saying goes.
01:17:29
There's this expectation.
01:17:30
then you had a lot of people go.
01:17:33
4 is too few, 150 is too slow, It like literally made people say, well, yeah, let's do
even better.
01:17:40
And the 97%, you know, if you do apply for NEVI and win, right?
01:17:47
Like there are actually penalties if you don't hit that.
01:17:50
And so it's forced the industry to buy better, more reliable hardware and, you know, have
backup systems, better monitoring.
01:17:58
it's, it's, it's, it's.
01:18:00
And it can also force the automakers to now make faster charging vehicles because there is
the infrastructure that can do a lot of this.
01:18:07
quickly on things like plug and charge and stuff.
01:18:10
I think, you know, that's something that gets overlooked is that it's really actually
driven the industry to kind of one level up like holding.
01:18:21
Yeah.
01:18:21
Yeah.
01:18:23
And, and, and just the third and final point on this is that, you know, if we go back and
look at the sort of the, winners list, and we talked about this, you know,
01:18:33
Pilots, Loves, QuickTrip, Circle K, Sheets, Wah Wah, they may not always be the applicant,
but the convenience store chains and travel centers are winning the majority of being the
01:18:50
site hosts.
01:18:52
And we've talked a lot about this and the whole industry does of, you you.
01:19:00
you pull up to a charging station and it's backed by the garbage cans in the back corner
of a parking lot and there's no lighting and stuff like that and it's, you know, it's not
01:19:11
a good experience.
01:19:12
There's no bathrooms, there's no people around, there's no lighting, right?
01:19:15
There's, you know, no amenities and stuff and that this has brought in players like the
convenience store chains.
01:19:27
and travel centers and even hotels and supermarkets and people like that that have these
amenities to get in the game.
01:19:37
And look at the things that Walmart and Iona and Mercedes-Benz are doing.
01:19:43
They didn't necessarily get into the game because of NEVI, but it's certainly influenced
them and they're part of it.
01:19:51
And so I think that's my third sort of positive point is we can't
01:19:57
lose sight that it's NEVI's helped attract like a better type of site host, right?
01:20:07
And it comes in.
01:20:08
Yeah.
01:20:09
Better experience.
01:20:11
set that kind of bar of what it needs to be to not even just be competitive, but like I
said, make better vehicles to use this infrastructure and get people want to buy EVs.
01:20:20
you talk to people in the industry and it's like, you know, everybody sort of talks about
that, you know, two 50 KW chargers, you know, out by the garbage cans, the back as the
01:20:32
past now, right?
01:20:33
Like that is unacceptable, right?
01:20:35
Like it's, we've sort of moved from, I'm just happy to find like a working charger back
there to no, I expect there to be food, restrooms, lights.
01:20:46
You know, 250, 150, 350 KW, six, eight, you know, like it's just, we, yeah, yeah.
01:20:55
And so, you know, I think, you know, years from now we'll look back and go, you know, NEVI
was a big part of the catalyst to moving the industry from this sort of entrepreneurial
01:21:13
lot of
01:21:13
problems, shortcomings, not ideal customer experience to really sort of the next level of
better companies, more well-capitalized companies, better experiences.
01:21:27
And yeah, and so I think it's, you know, the programs, yeah.
01:21:32
things to be positive about and remember where we've come from and where we're going.
01:21:36
And once again, to look back at the transition from steam and horses to the modern
automobile and kind of now this in its own generation for this century.
01:21:47
Yep, yep, absolutely.
01:21:49
Loren, really do.
01:21:51
I realized we have gone over time and I really do enjoy speaking with you about this.
01:21:54
This has been great for anyone listening.
01:21:57
Obviously they can find out more about you about Paren, but I believe you guys have a
couple of events that you'll be at as well in kind of the upcoming future that.
01:22:05
Yeah, mean, yeah, lot of like a lot of people in the industry, we will be at the what's
known as EVCS, the EV charging summit in Las Vegas in March.
01:22:16
I think it's the 21st through the 23rd, something like that.
01:22:20
But yeah, we'll be there.
01:22:22
Florin, our CEO and co founder, along with Bill Ferro CTO who you've you've had on and
myself.
01:22:29
And so yeah, anybody's there, look us up and
01:22:33
Yeah, we'll talk what everything that's going on with the
01:22:37
crazy EV charging industry, but yeah
01:22:41
Well, until next time, Loren, thank you so much.
01:22:43
We'll have links to everything we've kind of talked about and referenced today as well for
those listening.
01:22:47
So look down there for that.
01:22:48
until next time, thank you so much for coming on today,
01:22:51
Yeah, thanks a lot.
01:22:52
was great, great as always.
01:22:53
We covered a lot of ground.
01:23:00
That's a wrap for this episode of Grid Connections.
01:23:03
Huge thanks again to Lorne McDonald, chief analyst at Paren for sharing his insider's look
and how NEVI and other federal updates are shaping the EV charging landscape.
01:23:12
From emerging trends in rural charging deserts to the rising influence of rideshare
drivers on fast charging utilization.
01:23:18
Today's discussion was packed with insights about where the industry is headed and how
policy decisions are fueling or stalling new developments.
01:23:26
If you found this conversation valuable, don't let it stop here.
01:23:30
Please share this episode with at least one other person a friend colleague or fellow EV
enthusiast so we can spread the word about what's really happening in the world of
01:23:38
electric mobility and if you're enjoying great connections take a moment to leave us a
pause review on our podcast page Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue
01:23:47
bringing top-tier guests like Loren until next week.
01:23:50
This is the great connections podcast signing off
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