Rustam Kocher: Part 1

00:00:05

Good morning Grid Connections listeners
and for those of you who may be listening




00:00:08

for the first time, the Grid Connections
podcast is the show where we unravel the




00:00:12

complexities of electric transportation,
renewable energy, and our electrical power




00:00:16

grid that ties all of them together.




00:00:18

I'm your host Chase and today we're
thrilled to have Rustam Kocher, a




00:00:22

visionary retired trucking executive known
for his pivotal role at Daimler, where he




00:00:27

spearheaded the electric Cascadia trucking
program.




00:00:29

Our conversation was amazing.




00:00:31

I felt like I knew quite a bit actually
about electric trucking, but I really did




00:00:35

learn so much with our discussion.




00:00:37

In fact, our conversation went for so long
and we covered so much that I had to break




00:00:41

up our conversation into two parts.




00:00:44

So dive deep with us as we explore the
first part of our conversation with Rustam




00:00:48

discussing the electrifying challenges and
achievements in electric trucking from the




00:00:53

adoption of the game changing megawatt
charging standard or MCS for short.




00:00:57

to the future of autonomy in the industry.




00:01:00

In this episode, Rustam shares his
invaluable insights on the roadblocks and




00:01:03

milestones in electrifying the trucking
sector, enhancing EV charging




00:01:07

infrastructure, and the exciting prospects
of electric trucking domestically and




00:01:12

abroad.




00:01:14

It's a conversation packed with expertise
and foresight you won't want to miss.




00:01:18

But before we start, a quick reminder.




00:01:20

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00:01:23

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00:01:27

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00:01:32

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00:01:36

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00:01:39

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00:01:43

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00:01:47

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00:01:48

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00:01:48

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00:01:52

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00:01:53

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00:01:56

Once again, that's...




00:01:57

guests at ConnectingTheGrid .com or reach
out to us on our social channels.




00:02:03

And for those intrigued by Rustam's
journey and eager to learn more about his




00:02:06

current endeavors, be sure to check out
the show notes after the episode.




00:02:10

There's a treasure trove of information
waiting for you.




00:02:13

And with that, enjoy.




00:02:15

good morning, good afternoon, good
evening, wherever you're at, listeners.




00:02:18

My name is Rustam Kocher.




00:02:20

I actually do the heavy U on Rustam, but
either way is correct.




00:02:26

I fell into electrification actually
before I ever joined Daimler Trucks.




00:02:30

I was at Nike at the time in supply chain
and sourcing, and I had an old Nissan




00:02:37

Altima that I wanted to get rid of because
I got tired of paying the gasoline bill.




00:02:40

and this is around 2010 and there wasn't
any electric cars out there.




00:02:45

And so I went looking for them and I could
buy a zebra zap, which is a three wheeled




00:02:50

Chinese lead acid battery piece of crap,
but I think with 40 miles an hour and had




00:02:58

40 miles of range and had zero safety
features.




00:03:01

And I was like, that doesn't sound like a
car that I want to put my family and I




00:03:04

don't even mean.




00:03:05

But then I started to do some research and
the Nissan Leaf was coming out and then I




00:03:09

got into who killed the electric car and
looked at the Chevy Volt and I started to




00:03:16

do some research.




00:03:17

I was born and raised in Portland, Oregon.




00:03:20

I wanted to stay in the Portland area.




00:03:21

There was one auto maker in the Portland
area and that was Freightliner.




00:03:26

And they make really big class eight
trucks and class six, seven trucks.




00:03:31

And...




00:03:32

I decided to go in with the objective of
becoming a bit of an inside agitator, kind




00:03:38

of the guy that throws the Molotov
cocktail over the wall and sees what




00:03:41

happens.




00:03:42

And so I was able to finagle myself into a
sourcing role there because of my




00:03:47

experience at Nike.




00:03:48

And I was purchasing essentially the
elements of an electric vehicle, spinning




00:03:52

electric motors, so starters and
alternators, batteries, lead acid, 12 volt




00:03:56

batteries, and all the electrical
components that kind of go into those




00:03:59

things.




00:04:00

And...




00:04:01

By doing so, I got a great lesson in who
the suppliers were, what the technology




00:04:06

was, how everyone was preparing for
electrification.




00:04:10

And what I found out was that I knew more
about vehicle electrification than most of




00:04:14

the suppliers did.




00:04:16

Certainly more than Daimler was prepared
to do.




00:04:19

And so quickly I kind of became the expert
in the space within Freightliner.




00:04:25

I started literally printing out articles
about the Tesla Semi and the Nikola




00:04:30

Electric Semi and things like that,
leaving them on executives desks.




00:04:34

Quickly graduated to email and some
newsletters that went around internally.




00:04:39

We grew from three to three thousand on
the email newsletter distribution list




00:04:43

within about three years.




00:04:45

And so, yeah, it just kind of grew to
position myself to be ready for when




00:04:50

Daimler was ever going to take that
electrification leap.




00:04:54

Funny story was when I was first hired,
the new employees had a chance to kind of




00:04:59

raise their hand in one of these all
-employee meetings and ask a question of




00:05:02

one of these high -level executives.




00:05:04

And so I raised my hand and I said, so
when do we plan?




00:05:09

to divest ourselves from diesel engines
and move to the next generation of




00:05:14

whatever's going to propel our trucks and
what's that look like?




00:05:17

And he literally laughed and said, oh,
diesel will be the fuel and engine for the




00:05:24

next foreseeable 30 years.




00:05:25

So there's no need to change.




00:05:28

To which I said, I don't think so.




00:05:32

And I kept doing what I was doing.




00:05:34

And then, uh, Fretlander decided to start,
actually Roger, uh, who was the CEO at the




00:05:40

time, uh, decided to start an internal,
uh, what they call a swarm with




00:05:44

Enzymeland, which is the German version of
a school of fish, which is kind of a, uh,




00:05:49

an internal startup.




00:05:50

And we call ourselves, we got to name
ourselves in a little bit.




00:05:53

And so you have the, um, Mercedes AMG,
which is the performance side of things.




00:05:58

And we call ourselves EMG, the e -mobility
electric mobility group.




00:06:02

And we were tasked within two years to
come up with, is this a feasible thing to




00:06:09

do as far as electrification of our
trucks?




00:06:12

And within three months, we had built a
class, an EM2, so class 6 -7, and a class




00:06:20

8 eCascadia.




00:06:21

We built them from the ground up using
existing chassis and cabs and proved that,




00:06:27

yes, the technology was there.




00:06:28

We could do it.




00:06:29

We could build them.




00:06:30

And then we had to prove the market case,
which took us slightly longer.




00:06:34

But by about five to six months, we were
essentially done and said, yes, it's




00:06:37

technically feasible.




00:06:38

There's a business case for it.




00:06:40

And not only that, but regulation is going
to push this in this direction.




00:06:43

So we need to do it.




00:06:45

And we quickly grew from 11, which was the
initial group, to I think there's over 300




00:06:50

now that call themselves EMG within
Daimler Truck.




00:06:53

So it was a pretty cool thing to be
involved in and to help start up.




00:06:57

And...




00:06:58

I'm excited about the fact that we have
series production now, Freyliner,




00:07:02

eCascadia's and EMQ's being sold to
customers.




00:07:06

They're even on Gen 2 for the eCascadia's,
which is really, really cool.




00:07:11

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing all of
that.




00:07:13

And that, that actually has brought up so
many more questions with, uh, with that,




00:07:17

but I know we've got some stuff we want to
go over, but I guess real quickly, I would




00:07:21

be curious in that.




00:07:24

Um, cause one of the things I wanted to
ask you about was if you could, how much




00:07:27

you could share of it, but it's around the
organizational change required and kind of




00:07:32

pushing that because that is such a big
change.




00:07:34

And it's funny you share that anecdote
about them be like, no, we'll be diesel




00:07:38

forever.




00:07:38

And.




00:07:40

Coincidentally, one of my best friends
actually took a job a couple of years ago




00:07:44

and he now lives in the Midwest selling
Volvo semis.




00:07:47

And so he's got his own, uh, he's, he's, I
would say, uh, optimistic, but very




00:07:54

skeptical.




00:07:54

And then of course his buyers are very
skeptical of electric trucks.




00:07:58

Um, but I, I'm just kind of curious of
what you saw and if there was any, maybe




00:08:05

tactics is the wrong word, but any tactics
or other ways to kind of win people over.




00:08:09

Or to kind of highlight and show to them
that this can actually work and that there




00:08:14

is a future for this.




00:08:16

One of the first things we did was...




00:08:18

tried to get as many executives into
electric cars as we possibly could.




00:08:22

Now the problem is Mercedes didn't have
any to speak of.




00:08:25

They had a B class that was built by Tesla
that was honestly not a great performing




00:08:31

vehicle.




00:08:31

And so we got them into Tesla's Model S,
Model X that was available at the time.




00:08:37

And just we'd rent them on Turo and we'd
say, here's the key card, go drive this




00:08:42

car for a week, a month, whatever it
takes, and then come back to us with




00:08:46

questions and concerns.




00:08:48

And obviously anybody who's driven
electric, any sort of decent recent




00:08:54

electric, you know, there's all the
torque, there's the smoothness, there's




00:08:57

the quietness, there's the practicality,
and then there's the challenge with




00:09:01

charging.




00:09:02

And so those are the things that came up,
you know, wow, this is really smooth, it's




00:09:06

really torquey, it's fast, it's quiet.




00:09:09

but it's a bitch to charge and so how do
we solve that?




00:09:13

And so we said well, for trucks we need to
be able to show that charging




00:09:21

infrastructure can work for trucks but it
probably needs to be purpose built.




00:09:26

And so the next step was we built a
charging station.




00:09:30

And as far as we know, it was the first
public truck and bus charging station in




00:09:35

North America, if not in the Western
world.




00:09:38

And it was actually a partnership with
Portland General Electric, which was the




00:09:41

local public utility, which serves the
Portland area.




00:09:45

And it's a 50 -50 split.




00:09:47

In fact, we got PG into a little bit of
trouble because they agreed to that




00:09:51

without getting express approval from
their...




00:09:55

body that manages them or approves what
they can spend their money on and about




00:10:01

three quarters of the way through that
project actually moved over to PGE.




00:10:05

a funny story I need to tell you about
that.




00:10:08

We'll talk about that offline.




00:10:11

And what you're referring to is, I believe
it's called now Electric Island, kind of




00:10:16

in North Portland there by the Daimler
headquarters.




00:10:20

Yep, that's the one.




00:10:23

And so I actually jumped over to Portland
General Electric about three quarters of




00:10:26

the way through that project.




00:10:27

And so I managed it.




00:10:28

So I started it, helped design it, helped
build it and get the partnership going.




00:10:32

And then I jumped over the fence and
helped to finish it on the PG -E site.




00:10:35

So that was pretty exciting.




00:10:38

And so we kind of had to show the world
what charging for trucks could, should




00:10:43

look like.




00:10:44

And as part of that, charging speeds is an
issue or it's a question.




00:10:51

So a Tesla Semi or any large Semi that's
going to travel for a full eight hour or




00:10:58

10 hour day probably needs to carry
between 700 kilowatt hours to a megawatt.




00:11:05

And if you're going to charge that at one
C, that means you need to be able to put




00:11:09

in one megawatt of charging power.




00:11:14

And there's no...




00:11:15

that's a totally great point.




00:11:17

And I didn't mean to cut you off, but just
in case anyone's listening, what one C




00:11:20

refers to is essentially the charge rate
in comparison to the battery.




00:11:25

So, uh, as, as you kind of said there,
Rustin, when, if you have what let just to




00:11:29

keep it simple, if you have one megawatt
hour size battery, you almost need to have




00:11:34

one megawatt of power.




00:11:36

And then you're at one C if you go to two
megawatts and it's a one megawatt hour,




00:11:40

then you're at two C.




00:11:42

But I'm sorry, continue.




00:11:43

the time that it takes to charge in an
hour, give or take.




00:11:47

So if you have a 1 megawatt battery and it
was a zero and you charged it for an hour,




00:11:51

it would get to full 1C, 1 megawatt.




00:11:54

None of those things are exact because
it's going to charge faster when it's low




00:12:00

and it's, yeah, anyway.




00:12:03

It's a rough approximation, 1C, 1
megawatt, 1 megawatt charging speed.




00:12:08

So...




00:12:09

That came up fairly early on in 2018 when
we started to get into what needed to be




00:12:17

done for charging speeds and public
charging for the trucks.




00:12:20

And Tesla actually rang us up and said,
hey, we wanna work on this project with




00:12:24

you.




00:12:25

We can't charge at the speeds we want to
with any of the existing connectors in the




00:12:30

marketplace.




00:12:31

And so we need to come up with a new
charging standard for...




00:12:36

our Semi because they had announced the
Semi as well as any other commercial




00:12:41

vehicle and the idiot that I was I raised
my hand and said sure I'll leave the




00:12:48

global effort to try and standardize this
having never participated in a global




00:12:53

standardization project before I never
should have done it I'm not an engineer I




00:12:57

don't have that background nor experience
but




00:13:01

What we have today now after almost four
years is an MCS connector.




00:13:07

So if you look for the megawatt charging
standard, MCS online, it's a triangular




00:13:13

shaped connector that has now been
essentially almost completed from a




00:13:19

standardization standpoint and will, I
think, be rolled out later this year in




00:13:24

2024.




00:13:26

and put into use on trucks in public
charging stations.




00:13:30

I believe that some of the first will be
in Germany on a partnership site with




00:13:35

Chaiton and a couple other manufacturers
between Berlin and Düsseldorf along kind




00:13:41

of the east -west axis there in Germany.




00:13:44

So that's pretty exciting that those are
going to use.




00:13:48

You've seen another connector that Tesla's
using at their Pepsi site.




00:13:53

They were required to deliver those trucks
in a certain amount of time based on the




00:13:57

state funding that was being applied to
that Pepsi site.




00:14:00

And in order to meet that timeline, they
had to go to market with the stage of the




00:14:06

development of the MCS connector that we
were on at the time.




00:14:09

And that was that square connector.




00:14:11

And so...




00:14:12

We've had a couple iterations since then
with that global project and we've reached




00:14:17

that triangular plug.




00:14:18

The hope is that Tesla will come to the
market with the series production of Semi




00:14:23

with that same triangular shaped plug on
the truck so that any fleet that has a




00:14:29

mixture of Volvos and Mercedes and whoever
else is out there and Tesla will simply be




00:14:36

able to use the same charge plug and won't
have a mixture of DC charging plugs that




00:14:41

we do.




00:14:42

cars today.




00:14:43

And that was the intent.




00:14:44

The intent was to make this plug so that
it would be a worldwide standard so you




00:14:48

could have a truck in Germany that could
run in Portugal, that could run in Russia,




00:14:54

that could run in the U .S., that could
run in Venezuela, and everyone could




00:14:57

drive.




00:15:00

Yeah.




00:15:01

And from what I've seen, yeah, there's
been a few different iterations of it, but




00:15:04

the last one I saw, and I believe this is
the one you're talking about is




00:15:07

essentially looks kind of like a rounded
triangle from the outside.




00:15:10

And then there's essentially two main DC
pins and then I think two or three like




00:15:16

communication pins as well.




00:15:17

Um, and so,




00:15:19

and you have an in and out on the comms.




00:15:23

Yeah.




00:15:23

And so it's actually, I mean, it's pretty
big, but it's still like smaller than like




00:15:27

the traditional Chateau Mo plug.




00:15:29

Um, so it's not like absurdly big.




00:15:31

And when you're talking about the power
it's dealing with, you're like, yeah, this




00:15:34

seems totally reasonable.




00:15:35

Um, and it, and anyone that's ever been by
like a commercial fueling station or ever




00:15:40

just even dealt with, uh, using a gas pump
there, it's actually would be, you just




00:15:45

plug it in and it goes.




00:15:46

So it's really not that, uh, from a user
experience, it's probably just.




00:15:51

is good if not better really, because you
can just kind of leave it and walk away




00:15:54

and it's still a pretty light device.




00:15:56

I'm curious as you're going through the
evolution of this, you talk about the one




00:16:03

that Tesla goes to market with and I've
seen that one where it's maybe people that




00:16:07

are listening have seen on TV where it's
almost like square from the outside kind




00:16:10

of and there's two like main vertical
pins.




00:16:13

Yeah, is there as you're going through
this, what did you find was the




00:16:17

biggest thing dictating this evolution
through these different styles?




00:16:21

Was it the communication protocols?




00:16:22

Was it the need for kind of over and
beyond safety for delivering this power?




00:16:28

Or is it maybe a mixture of all of the
above?




00:16:31

Communication protocols was an active
conversation throughout the, from the




00:16:36

start to the finish, honestly, and it
didn't really get finalized until late




00:16:41

last year through a voting process in the
standardization body in Europe.




00:16:49

Primarily, we made the decisions we made
as a group.




00:16:52

We really started with the use case and we
started with the customers and the OEMs.




00:16:57

the utilities and we said okay let's help
define what this needs to do.




00:17:02

how it's going to be used.




00:17:04

Do we want people to have to use safety
equipment in order to utilize it?




00:17:07

We said no, so there should be no safety
equipment.




00:17:10

Who's going to use it?




00:17:11

Well, essentially anyone is going to be
driving a commercial vehicle, so it has to




00:17:15

fit a use case of maybe a small young
female or an older elderly driver that has




00:17:23

to be able to climb down and plug it in.




00:17:25

So it can't be too heavy, it can't be too
unwieldy.




00:17:28

It has to be usable by not only the peak
of safety,




00:17:33

human condition but the edges as well.




00:17:35

So how do we make this so that the...




00:17:38

insertion forces and the removal forces
aren't obscene and people can actually use




00:17:43

it.




00:17:43

But then again, at the same time that it's
safe, that it can conduct these one




00:17:48

megawatt levels of power or more in a way
that's not going to put anybody at risk.




00:17:53

So we said, you know, safety, usability,
no safety equipment, things like that.




00:17:59

And so that's that's how we kind of came
up with defining what it should be able to




00:18:04

do.




00:18:04

And then we defined from a technical
standpoint that




00:18:08

what it should look like.




00:18:09

So there's what's called creepage and
clearance distances so that you don't have




00:18:13

any voltage that decides to leak out when
it's under power because voltage can jump




00:18:19

if given the chance if it's on a dirty
surface things like that.




00:18:22

So I learned a lot.




00:18:24

We actually had one whole lesson about the
physics of energy transfer and how close




00:18:30

things can actually get under you know
what amount of pressure is kind of useful




00:18:36

and what is too much or you know
essentially




00:18:39

longer useful, doesn't give you any
additional contact force and reduce the




00:18:44

amount of heating between the two
materials, things like that.




00:18:47

So again, I'm not an engineer, but I
learned a lot during this process.




00:18:53

And we learned that it's easier to tighten
the connection on a round face than it is




00:19:01

on two square faces.




00:19:03

You can kind of push with two square
faces, but...




00:19:05

it's easier to cinch down a round face and
get the kind of connection.




00:19:12

I don't know, durability over time so that
you can have the insertion removal forces




00:19:16

that you want but still get a nice clamp
force, things like that.




00:19:19

So that's how we came up with what we did.




00:19:21

Then we chose the V shape because as a
user it's easier to kind of slot that into




00:19:26

the V, then tip it up and push it in,
things like that.




00:19:29

And then we defined where it should be on
the truck, which makes the cable length a




00:19:33

little shorter.




00:19:36

So that was a bit of a fight, but in the
end we said left side of the left hand




00:19:40

side of the vehicle in all markets.




00:19:42

So whether it's in the UK or in Germany,
it's on the left side of the vehicle,




00:19:46

roughly hip height on the average human.




00:19:49

So that, so the instruction removal forces
aren't too bad.




00:19:52

And then behind the most rearward forward
axle and in front of the most forward rear




00:20:00

axle.




00:20:01

So which is a fancy way of saying it.




00:20:03

Between the axles, because sometimes you
have a double steer in the front and you




00:20:06

have two axles in the back.




00:20:07

So between the axles, left hand side of
the truck, roughly hip height.




00:20:11

So it gives you kind of a chapazoid shape
to put the connector in.




00:20:14

And that way your cable doesn't have to be
too long, so you don't have a really long




00:20:18

cable that's liquid cooled, being draped
around and have to run.




00:20:22

You you're talking a class eight truck,
you potentially could have, you know, 10




00:20:26

meters of cable if the connection point
was on the back or the front or the nose.




00:20:30

It's a giant vehicle.




00:20:32

You see the long cables with passenger
cars today.




00:20:35

So that's how we defined it.




00:20:36

And that's what we




00:20:37

yeah, that is actually a really
interesting point and pretty smart to make




00:20:41

sure that doesn't matter what market it's
kind of in the same place and especially




00:20:45

on the same side.




00:20:46

Cause I guess in a different realm, the
Tesla superchargers opening here in North




00:20:51

America, and I guess they have actually
been open in Europe for a little while.




00:20:54

The whole issue around what side it's on
kind of causes where the car and blocks




00:20:58

and other chargers.




00:20:59

That's very interesting and makes a lot of
sense.




00:21:03

Now.




00:21:04

I have a Volkswagen ID .3 here and I end
up blocking two spots when I charge using




00:21:09

the Tesla charger.




00:21:10

So I've come to start to use the last one
on the road and I parked sideways to it.




00:21:15

So I only take up one spot.




00:21:17

But you can't do that with the semi.




00:21:19

With the semi and a pull through with a
trailer, you kind of have to have the




00:21:22

charger where it needs to be.




00:21:23

gonna, you're gonna definitely get into
some, uh, not so friendly conversations




00:21:28

with, uh, with that.




00:21:31

So electric Island, when that went in, uh,
I mean, it's still in and I remember




00:21:37

hearing they're going to do like a second
round of upgrades to it.




00:21:39

I don't know if that's happened.




00:21:40

I don't know if you do, but when it
originally launched, it was essentially




00:21:44

just, uh, CCS one connect.




00:21:47

High voltage ones, but yeah, essentially
that's what the Daimler trucks would use




00:21:52

is they would plug that in.




00:21:53

The idea was, and I think they eventually
did open it to the public to use as well.




00:21:58

It was open to the public from day one.




00:22:00

Actually the day we opened it, it was open
to the public.




00:22:02

In fact, it was free for about the first
six months because we couldn't get the




00:22:05

payment software to overlay correctly on
the multitude of chargers that we had.




00:22:11

And so if you rolled up and you were a
rideshare, you got free electricity for




00:22:15

about six months.




00:22:16

So there was some pretty happy people
there for a while.




00:22:18

But yes, it was all CCS -1 connectors.




00:22:20

We had a couple of Chattemo.




00:22:23

We had all the way from 50 kW for like an
overnight style charge all the way up to,




00:22:28

I think I've got a 450 there now.




00:22:31

And we've got a stretch between 400 volt,
800 volt.




00:22:35

We've got the capability to put in the
automated connector system like a robot.




00:22:42

And then obviously we planned for MCS, so
the MCS capability to, the ability to




00:22:47

install an MCS, multiple MCS, as well as a
BESS and solar there are all there.




00:22:53

So we've, we made the site as flexible as
possible.




00:22:56

In fact, if you look at the overheads of
Electric Island, you'll see kind of a




00:23:02

concrete strip that runs through and under
all of the chargers.




00:23:04

That's actually a




00:23:06

with a cement top and you can just pop
that trench, drop new cables in, close it




00:23:10

back up, and you can actually switch out a
DC fast charger probably in about two




00:23:15

hours where at most sites it would take
you two or three days.




00:23:19

So it's got a tremendous flexibility.




00:23:22

So it seems like there could be like in
the quickest version of that, could you,




00:23:27

or maybe it's dependent on the actual
charger, you know, might not be able to




00:23:29

speak the language, but could you
literally just swap the cord out and then




00:23:33

it would have MCS or does the charger also
need to be replaced to, I guess what I'm




00:23:38

curious about is like the communication
protocol.




00:23:40

Is it CCS based?




00:23:42

Is it its own thing?




00:23:43

Does that make sense?




00:23:44

Like how you can swap out a, uh,




00:23:48

there, I believe you'd have to drop some
new cable.




00:23:52

I don't know 100 % the answer on that.




00:23:54

I think what they finally decided in the
standardization body was to go with




00:23:59

Ethernet.




00:24:00

And I believe that cable is different than
going via PLC or CAN, which are the other




00:24:08

two communication protocols out there that
we're considering.




00:24:11

So I believe you would have to drop a new
cable.




00:24:14

Gotcha.




00:24:15

And does it, uh, is there a kind of
version of plugin charge or something




00:24:20

supported or would it also kind of require
the payment side of stuff where each time




00:24:24

it plugs in it?




00:24:26

I mean, I'm just kind of curious about
that.




00:24:28

Yeah.




00:24:28

is to use 1511 -8 -20, which does have
plug and charge integrated.




00:24:33

So essentially you would carry the ID
within your vehicle of who you are and




00:24:38

who's paying for your charging.




00:24:40

You simply plug it in and walk away.




00:24:41

That's the intent.




00:24:43

Very cool.




00:24:44

With that, I think we've, unless there's
anything else you can think of, it seems




00:24:47

like we covered a lot on the MCS for that.




00:24:49

That's really fascinating.




00:24:50

And I really appreciate that because we
really don't get to talk about that too




00:24:53

much.




00:24:53

Um, it's usually around CCS and Tesla
standards.




00:24:58

So.




00:24:58

behind MCS was essentially to try and put
a bullet into hydrogen.




00:25:02

I will admit that I feel that hydrogen is
a little bit of a...




00:25:08

It's a push by the oil and gas industry to
stay relevant.




00:25:13

You know, kind of what they do is drill
and refine and pipe and ship liquid and




00:25:18

gaseous fuels and that's their business
model and so that's what they would like




00:25:21

to do with hydrogen.




00:25:24

The only substantial difference between,
performance difference between a hydrogen




00:25:31

and a BEV truck is that you can fuel a
hydrogen fuel cell truck faster and you




00:25:37

get slightly more range.




00:25:38

Well, we know batteries continue to
improve from a gravimetric, gravimetric




00:25:43

and let's see the term, density, power
density capacity.




00:25:50

And so they're able to hold more power and
accept more power.




00:25:54

over time as they improve.




00:25:56

And so we know that we'll have the
capacity on a BEV truck as much or more as




00:26:03

a hydrogen truck.




00:26:04

And with MCS, the charge time is roughly
the same.




00:26:07

So it essentially puts the hydrogen fuel
cell truck to bed because cost per mile of




00:26:16

BEV beats it every day.




00:26:17

Yeah.




00:26:18

And that's really interesting because
that's something I've talked with people a




00:26:20

lot.




00:26:21

And from like a energy and scientific
standpoint, I kind of get the argument for




00:26:25

hydrogen.




00:26:25

Uh, but when you look at, once again, like
it, to me reminds me of where consumer




00:26:31

electric vehicles are maybe like five to
10 years ago in some ways, because like,




00:26:35

obviously back then there was a much
larger argument for hydrogen for consumer




00:26:38

vehicles.




00:26:39

And now that's kind of fallen away.




00:26:41

Uh, we're even seeing the few that were
still open in California or even closing




00:26:44

down and.




00:26:46

argument.




00:26:47

If you have the electricity to make the
hydrogen, then you've created a hydrogen




00:26:52

that then you have to compress and ship.




00:26:55

And then you have to put it into a storage
tank at a dispensation facility.




00:27:00

You have to dispense it.




00:27:01

And then you have to turn it through a
fuel cell to electricity into a battery




00:27:05

that you then drive.




00:27:07

You're already five steps behind an
electric motor and a battery because




00:27:11

electric motor and battery, you simply put
the electricity into it and that the




00:27:14

battery.




00:27:15

So if you simply take that electricity
that you're going to use to make the




00:27:18

hydrogen and use it for the truck, you're
already ahead of the game.




00:27:21

Yeah, and I mean, I don't mean to be a
fear monger, but I think the concept of




00:27:24

using hydrogen and the Hindenburg analogy
to it, but then the fact that it's under




00:27:29

pressure, there's just all these things
that really compound it to like make it




00:27:33

not as energy dense, because you have to
have under pressure, you have to have a




00:27:36

much larger thing to keep it.




00:27:38

But even then, I think the thing that I'm
even consistently surprised by that people




00:27:43

don't fully realize, because I think the
biggest area where we're seeing this, when




00:27:47

you talk about the traditional fossil fuel
industry,




00:27:49

is around natural gas and making the
conversion from natural gas to be hydrogen




00:27:53

moving.




00:27:54

And the problem is hydrogen is the
smallest atom and it's not like slightly




00:27:59

harder to contain.




00:28:00

It's much harder to contain.




00:28:04

hydrogen embrittlement.




00:28:05

So if you use those same pipelines that
you use for natural gas and you try to use




00:28:09

them from hydrogen, they will just start
to crack.




00:28:12

And again, the hydrogen is a small atom,
so out it goes, and it will come in




00:28:17

contact with the source of flame and
you've got a big boom.




00:28:20

So.




00:28:20

Yeah, I mean, it's a very different form
of transportation, but if anyone that's




00:28:24

curious, the best thing they can do is go
research the space shuttle, uh, because it




00:28:28

was a mostly hydrogen powered and it just,
it is one of those things kind of in




00:28:34

theory.




00:28:34

And when you first think about it makes a
lot of sense, but then in practice and




00:28:38

execution, it really starts showing it
shortcomings and how much is required to




00:28:44

make it work.




00:28:45

And unfortunately it can go wrong very
quickly.




00:28:48

So.




00:28:49

We've said enough, I think about hydrogen
on that.




00:28:51

Um, but no, I, I really appreciate that.




00:28:54

And one thing you mentioned that I hadn't
really thought about before, and I kind of




00:28:57

like to hear more about is you said it
takes roughly the same amount of time to




00:29:02

fuel hydrogen as it is with an electric
truck.




00:29:05

And I know one of the things I've talked
to my friend who does, um, sell class




00:29:10

eight semis and there, these are people
are doing big trips in these semis, but I




00:29:14

mean, even with new regulations and I will
say, uh,




00:29:18

I'm always there's a fine line with
regulations, but as a person who drives a




00:29:22

lot on highways, the idea of like making
drivers have to take more breaks and be




00:29:27

safe about I'm okay with that one.




00:29:29

Um, uh, because everyone's human and
there's just a point that you can only




00:29:33

push someone so far.




00:29:34

And what is interesting is I believe it's,
is it every eight hours or 10 hours now,




00:29:40

um, that yeah.




00:29:44

Europe it's actually shorter, I believe
it's four or five hours in Europe.




00:29:49

In the US, I believe it's 10.




00:29:52

But yeah.




00:29:53

Yeah.




00:29:55

Yeah.




00:29:55

essentially brought it down to 10, which
is still a long day behind the wheel.




00:29:59

And, um, and once again, not to say they
can't do it, but I think that's a pretty




00:30:03

fair compromise, honestly, at 10 hours.




00:30:05

And so what is interesting is like, when
you look at how big these trucks are and




00:30:09

how fast they can go, you get into certain
States here in the U S where it's like,




00:30:13

you could be going in the seventies and
that's obviously kind of hitting your




00:30:16

efficiency and stuff, but it's.




00:30:18

It's kind of now at the right point that
as long as you have the charging stations




00:30:22

at the right location, when these drivers
have to take breaks anyway, the charging,




00:30:28

even with the current technology aligns
pretty well with how long they and how




00:30:32

frequently they have to break to recharge.




00:30:36

And I'm kind of curious when you
mentioned, is that kind of what you were




00:30:40

alluding to?




00:30:41

And is that similar with what you've seen
with hydrogen trucking?




00:30:45

Well, the MCS again, so when we started,
before we got into any sort of design




00:30:51

parameters of what it should look like, we
said, what does it need to do?




00:30:54

And one of the things that we decided that
it needed to do was hit that driver brake




00:30:59

and get it to 80 % roughly.




00:31:03

so that they can get back on the road
again and continue until their next break.




00:31:07

And so that was the intent was to hit that
20 to 25 minute window to get them from 10




00:31:13

% to 80%.




00:31:14

So how do we do that?




00:31:15

Well, we need to dispense at 1C, 1 .2C.




00:31:19

Okay, what connector needs to be able to
do 1 megawatt, 1 .3 megawatts, okay.




00:31:24

So, you know, then what does it need to
look like?




00:31:26

How much power does it need to dispense?




00:31:27

Those sorts of things.




00:31:28

So that's how we got to there.




00:31:30

And so we started with the kind of that
short break, you know, that 20 minute




00:31:37

break.




00:31:37

What does that look like?




00:31:39

And that's what we tried to try to hit.




00:31:41

So that's why we came up with the
parameters we did from power.




00:31:45

We also wanted to stay under 1200 volts
because if you go above 1200 volts, it




00:31:51

gets into some safety regulations in some
markets where you do have to wear safety




00:31:56

equipment or have to have special
training.




00:31:58

in order to operate the equipment.




00:32:01

And so if we stayed under 1200 volts, we
didn't get a board of those things.




00:32:07

Like I said, it was a lot of learning.




00:32:08

But at 800 amps, 1000 volts, it starts to,
that's a lot of power, but you can start




00:32:15

to hit those 20, 25 minute top ups.




00:32:18

And you see the Tesla Semi doing it
already with Pepsi.




00:32:22

And they're only operating at 700 kW.




00:32:26

where they can do a 30 minute driver break
at lunch, get that truck back up and




00:32:31

running and they did that 1200 mile day
when they're doing the drive on that.




00:32:35

So we know it's possible for sure.




00:32:39

It's interesting you mentioned the Tesla
semi and you said 700 kilowatts Do you




00:32:43

know if that's limited by the truck or is
that limited by the charging




00:32:47

infrastructure?




00:32:48

They're using currently?




00:32:49

I don't know the answer to that question.




00:32:50

I just know that that's the number that
they've shared with everyone.




00:32:54

I have had some conversations with
engineers on both truck and charging side,




00:32:58

but those are private.




00:33:01

Now I'm sure I, and I realize you hadn't
worked there.




00:33:04

I just wondering if, uh, there's more of
just a general question, but I mean, even




00:33:08

if you can make it even work at 700
kilowatts and you have it already kind of




00:33:11

almost future proof to get to that make a
watt thing.




00:33:14

Um, that makes it a pretty, I mean,
that's.




00:33:16

on top so we knew that we could hit
certain things now, but we also wanted




00:33:21

room for growth because both of the CCS -1
and CCS -2 were essentially topped out.




00:33:25

There was no more room for growth when
they were standardized.




00:33:27

So we said, okay, let's make this
connector able to grow, give it some




00:33:31

headroom so that if somebody did want to
push it, they could.




00:33:35

And the funny thing was is we only set out
to do this for trucks and buses.




00:33:39

And then here comes a marine and...




00:33:43

Here comes aviation and then here comes
mining and here comes all these like event




00:33:49

space and like, can we use this?




00:33:50

And we're like, sure, whatever.




00:33:51

So now it's like, if it rolls, floats or
flies and you need a lot of power, have




00:33:55

that.




00:33:56

So MCS is the solution to a lot of
interesting problems.




00:34:01

That's pretty cool.




00:34:02

And that, that is actually something else
I wanted to ask you about because they're




00:34:04

all, uh, whether you're bearish or bullish
on is there's all these new VTOL companies




00:34:09

coming out.




00:34:09

They were, I was watching an interview
recently.




00:34:11

Um, I think there's definitely a market
for it.




00:34:14

I don't know if it's a large disruptive
market unless you're a helicopter




00:34:18

business, but there's, there's definitely
certain areas, maybe in Europe and




00:34:22

definitely like the Bay area in, um, the U
S where it's like, yeah, I could see that,




00:34:26

but there's, there's definitely a use case
for that.




00:34:31

And one of the things they were talking
about is like, Oh, we don't know what




00:34:33

charging equipment we're going to use yet.




00:34:35

And so it's really interesting.




00:34:36

You mentioned that because like that
almost seems like, cause their batteries




00:34:39

aren't nearly that big.




00:34:40

I figured it'd be like something more like
even just using a Tesla, the new North




00:34:44

American charging standard actually would
be like perfect for it.




00:34:47

And so I was kind of curious.




00:34:48

They hadn't announced anything, but like
even once again, using something like




00:34:51

that, um, where it's a pretty well -known
standard and.




00:34:55

Could be used for other things.




00:34:57

I mean, they're talking about putting them
on the top of garage, uh,




00:35:00

parking garages.




00:35:01

So I don't know how many semi trucks are
going to go to the top of parking garage.




00:35:05

But, and that's where I was counting.




00:35:07

I was like, well, yeah, if you did like
the next thing, then while you're, if, uh,




00:35:11

if you're not charging a, uh, uh, if you
tall, you could be charging someone's car




00:35:16

and charging money for that.




00:35:17

But that's a whole nother thing.




00:35:18

And I'm not in that business.




00:35:20

So with that, that's,




00:35:23

seem to think that they can get close to a
Megalight out of a Naxx connector, which




00:35:27

if they can do it, power to them.




00:35:29

Maybe that's a cheaper way to do it.




00:35:31

Getting power to the site is another
question entirely.




00:35:34

And I'll be getting utilities to provide
that power to the site.




00:35:39

Right.




00:35:39

I think, um, I, I kind of agree with you.




00:35:42

I think it's really cool that they
designed it and they kind of pushed it to




00:35:46

be that.




00:35:47

I don't know how practical, but I, like
you were saying earlier, CCS one and CCS




00:35:51

two were kind of maxed out as it was.




00:35:53

And from a future proofing standpoint, if
your plans to only use it mostly for, um,




00:35:58

regular vehicles, then yeah, that gives
you so much headroom and then some that it




00:36:02

does seem to be pretty well future
-proofed.




00:36:04

If you wanted to go up to semis, I don't
know.




00:36:07

But you can at least even as like a backup
have it that like, even if you can get to




00:36:10

like we're talking about 700 kilowatts,
it's kind of a nice backup thing to have




00:36:14

if you're building a site anyway.




00:36:16

Um, but no, I, I'm, I, I'm curious, have
you had many discussions with the




00:36:22

traditional like fueling stations around
like the, the pilots, the flying J's or,




00:36:27

um, kind of the commercial Pacific's that
are traditional fueling stops for truckers




00:36:32

around moving to kind of an electric
future.




00:36:35

And it went.




00:36:36

feedback they have because the reason I
bring this up is one of the things we've




00:36:40

talked about a lot on this podcast is
especially around CCS2 is the challenges




00:36:45

at least domestically around Electrify
America not to point finger point, but as




00:36:51

an example that have struggled with
charging infrastructure.




00:36:54

And now you're starting to see some of it
through federal funding.




00:36:58

Others just come through general interest.




00:37:00

You're starting to see the flying J's, the
pilots.




00:37:02

Enter that space.




00:37:03

And for them, there's never really been a
strong business model in fueling.




00:37:06

It's the stuff they sell when people stop
to fuel.




00:37:10

Exactly.




00:37:14

Exactly.




00:37:15

And




00:37:15

that the conversations with the Travel
Americas and the Loves and the Flying J




00:37:21

folks were really, really frustrating back
in the early, the late teens and the early




00:37:27

twenties.




00:37:28

There was a real lack of any interest or
desire to get into the charging space by




00:37:34

any of them.




00:37:34

I'd say that's substantially changed now.




00:37:36

Every single one of the major fuel
refueling rest stops slash, you know, Buc




00:37:43

-E's, you know, what's what have you,
they're, they've all got some sort of a




00:37:47

charging partner and they've all got some
sort of a strategy that they're going




00:37:50

into.




00:37:53

Some are well thought out, some are less
so.




00:37:57

Not all of them have consideration for
larger vehicles than light duty.




00:38:02

Some do, some don't.




00:38:04

So, you know, the proof will be in the
pudding.




00:38:06

Everybody's in the early stages of it.




00:38:09

But it's an area of industry that's right
for disruption, which is why I consult and




00:38:19

I'm on the advisory board for Watt EV.




00:38:21

So when we built Electric Island,




00:38:24

It was this couple of guys from down in
the LA area that kind of kept calling me




00:38:29

up and asking me questions.




00:38:30

And I've always been one that's like, one
company can't do it all.




00:38:34

We need as many people in this space to be
successful as possible.




00:38:39

If you're an honest broker, you are honest
with the market and honest with what your




00:38:45

technical capabilities are.




00:38:48

and you're in it for the right reasons, I
think you should succeed.




00:38:51

So there's a couple of companies that
maybe fall outside of that exclusion zone.




00:38:55

I won't name them, but if you're honest
and upright, forthright with the market,




00:39:01

let's see you succeed.




00:39:03

So YDV came about as an idea from these
guys that they wanted to provide




00:39:08

essentially identical versions of Electric
Island scaled up for the market.




00:39:14

And so...




00:39:16

power to Portland General Electric and a
couple of my predecessors in the utility




00:39:20

industry up and down the West Coast.




00:39:22

There had been some pre -work done to
establish what a West Coast clean transit




00:39:26

corridor would look like.




00:39:28

I did some more work on that when I was at
Portland General Electric.




00:39:32

It's a partnership between all the
different utilities up and down the West




00:39:34

Coast.




00:39:35

And it was a pre -plan as to what needs to
be done in order to allow freight to move




00:39:41

from San Diego to Vancouver, BC.




00:39:45

And so the sites have been reviewed, the
desk reviews have been done, the upgrades




00:39:51

have been identified, and essentially all
the utilities are waiting for is a




00:39:57

customer to come in and say, I plan on
asking you for 12 megawatts at the site,




00:40:03

or two megawatts, or whatever it is, let's
get it done.




00:40:06

And they can pull the desk review out that
they've recently done and move forward.




00:40:10

and Wadi V and others have started to do
that.




00:40:12

So it's really exciting to see them move
into a business that's never been a




00:40:18

business before.




00:40:19

It's truly unique, it's new, no one's ever
built.




00:40:24

for -profit public truck charging and bus
charging sites before.




00:40:29

They saw a unique opportunity in that if
you have a public charging site, you're




00:40:35

only making money if you're dispensing
energy.




00:40:37

So if you've got only a small volume of
trucks out there, you're not gonna have a




00:40:42

lot of customers.




00:40:43

But there's also within the Los Angeles
area for the ports of Long Beach and LA.




00:40:49

Most of the drayage carriers, the folks
that go and pick up containers are small




00:40:54

fleets, the mom and pops.




00:40:56

They run from two to five trucks.




00:40:58

And the way to get them into an electric
truck is to lower the barriers to entry.




00:41:06

And so YDB has actually purchased a number
of electric trucks.




00:41:10

and offers them as truck as a service and
charging as a service to these customers.




00:41:15

So they can simply pay a monthly fee,
charge up with the Wadi V sites and then




00:41:19

go pull freight, zero emissions out of
Port of LA and Long Beach.




00:41:22

So it's kind of exciting and it's neat to
see them succeed.




00:41:26

They've got one site up and running and
they'll have three more open, I think by




00:41:30

the end of this year, one in Bakersfield,
one in Inland Empire.




00:41:34

And it's really exciting to see them grow.




00:41:38

Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned ports
because I've had a interesting




00:41:41

conversation recently with a company
that's focused in the commercial charging




00:41:47

space, but they're approaching and there's
a couple doing this, but they're




00:41:50

approaching it with wireless charging.




00:41:53

And I was kind of curious with MCS, are
there any protocols or any standards for,




00:41:58

or kind of like future proofing built to
do it MCS level of charging wirelessly?




00:42:03

Or is that kind of still a little bit of a
wild west and a separate thing?




00:42:06

I know.




00:42:07

You also mentioned doing just having a
robotic charging to kind of automate the




00:42:11

process anyway.




00:42:13

So I think that that chapter has not been
completely written for charging yet.




00:42:20

You made a mention of truckers and being
on the road for a certain length of time.




00:42:26

As we reach automation for driving, and I
don't know what kind of electric car you




00:42:32

have, but I had a model Y and I had a
model three in the US.




00:42:36

And I drove through Wyoming without
touching the steering wheel.




00:42:41

And I literally took...




00:42:42

I think 97 pennies and stuffed them into a
rubber racket ball and hung it with a




00:42:49

string over my steering wheel so it had
enough pull on the steering wheel.




00:42:53

And on the freeway, that car drove with
100 % degree of certainty.




00:42:58

And so it's entirely within the capability
of autonomous driving on freeways for




00:43:03

trucks, I think, to operate on freeways
autonomously.




00:43:07

And so if you extrapolate that further, if
you have autonomous trucks,




00:43:11

they need to be electric so that there's
zero emission.




00:43:14

And if you have electric autonomous
trucks, then you have to have some way to




00:43:18

autonomously charge them.




00:43:20

Whether that's a robotic arm, whether
that's induction, I don't have an answer




00:43:25

to that.




00:43:25

I don't think anybody knows what that
answer is yet.




00:43:28

Induction does have some challenges as far
as the orientation, making sure that




00:43:33

they're directly, the coils are directly
oriented, that there's no misdirection




00:43:38

because you get a lot of heat and you get
a lot of...




00:43:40

power loss between the two.




00:43:42

The coils being carried on the vehicle can
be quite heavy if you're going to convey




00:43:47

that much power, whether or not that's
efficient because you have some energy




00:43:50

loss there.




00:43:52

Those things need to be solved.




00:43:57

Again, I don't know.




00:43:58

MCS was kind of the next step as far as
what we could do from a conductive point




00:44:04

of view, whether it's a robotic arm that
goes and sticks that in, or whether we




00:44:09

have some sort of inductive solution.




00:44:11

I don't know.




00:44:12

But if you talk about autonomous vehicles,
not having a driver, or maybe having a




00:44:17

driver at the wheel that's simply
monitoring, then why would you have




00:44:20

somebody that has to go shove the thing
into the vehicle?




00:44:22

They've got to be something.




00:44:27

Yeah, it's a, uh, the reason I asked that
it was kind of interesting how these




00:44:30

conversations and I kind of go back and
forth on the value of the technology




00:44:34

because they're, they, they were
approaching using radio waves.




00:44:38

So you kind of get around some of those
issues that you were talking about from




00:44:41

the hardware standpoint and you still get
pretty high efficiency, but a big part of




00:44:46

it was just the fact that that way they
don't even have to train or deal with the




00:44:50

people plugging it in on their break.




00:44:52

And they were talking about for a lot of
these were transit electric vehicles, like




00:44:54

the person could just pull up, uh,




00:44:57

Have people get on and off, do a quick
charge without even knowing it.




00:45:00

Or when they take their break for lunch or
whatever, they just park it somewhere.




00:45:04

They don't have to think about actually
plugging it in.




00:45:07

And so from that standpoint, there's some
really interesting things.




00:45:10

And the fact that there's really no moving
parts versus kind of the robotic thing is




00:45:13

also kind of a long -term value
proposition to it.




00:45:18

But right.




00:45:18

I kind of agree with you.




00:45:19

It's like, it's interesting, but it's
still kind of early days to see where,




00:45:23

which one's going to really make it out in
the longterm.




00:45:27

Yeah, but it's interesting you mentioned
it.




00:45:30

Yeah.




00:45:30

and that sort of thing, you've got
Pantograph, those go up to really nice




00:45:34

high powers.




00:45:35

You install those Pantos at certain brake
sites or places that a bus is going to be




00:45:40

for long, five minutes or less or more,
sorry.




00:45:43

And yeah, Panto is a great solution as
well.




00:45:48

Yeah.




00:45:48

And I think what we've been talking about
today is semis and there's probably a use




00:45:51

case, especially if it's a short trip one,
but it seems like a lot of these are more




00:45:56

focused on either transit or maybe even,
uh, ports were a big one for them too.




00:46:01

And so, um, but we talk about autonomy and
I'm kind of curious what you have seen and




00:46:08

what you've experienced.




00:46:09

Uh, I've actually had a lot of, uh,
professional and personal experience




00:46:13

around autonomy, but obviously kind of the
light duty side of stuff.




00:46:16

And from what you were even talking about,
you're totally right that, uh, I mean, I




00:46:21

actually have a model Y two.




00:46:22

I've driven through Wyoming quite a few
times and you're exactly right.




00:46:25

You just kind of hit the thing and it's
just straight.




00:46:28

Um, yeah.




00:46:33

Um, and so the, the only thing you really
have to worry about, I've done it a couple




00:46:38

of times and you can get a pretty big
headwind.




00:46:40

So you just have to figure out where your
charting stop is.




00:46:43

Um, but other, I mean, other, other than
that,




00:46:46

That other than that, that that's, and as
if you're, once again, if you got the




00:46:50

Tesla thing going for you, it's still a
pretty straightforward process, but that




00:46:54

is one of the few times I actually got
close to getting into trouble was the




00:46:57

headwind was just hitting my range so
much, but that's a whole different story.




00:47:00

So with autonomy, um, what, what have you
seen around that and what, what, uh,




00:47:08

whether it's your own experience with it
or just kind of your kind of.




00:47:13

industry knowledge that you can see the
future of that or how realistic and how




00:47:17

soon is that for an option for semis?




00:47:21

So the Venn diagram of autonomy and
electric, you would think are kind of the




00:47:26

same circle, but they're not.




00:47:28

So autonomy works really well in
commercial trucks, for the longer hauls,




00:47:35

and the long haul and battery electric
trucks aren't a great mix just yet.




00:47:39

It's great for driver safety on highway
and freeway, but again.




00:47:45

battery electric trucks don't get you on a
long haul.




00:47:49

So autonomy is definitely there as we see,
you know, with Tesla, there's the, what's




00:47:55

the Ford, there's something blue.




00:47:57

Chevy's got theirs.




00:47:58

I mean, there's the Mercedes has theirs.




00:48:00

Everybody's got some sort of a version of
autonomy out there.




00:48:04

On commercial vehicles from a safety
standpoint, I would much rather have a




00:48:08

driver with an autonomous software feature
available to them to keep them safe.




00:48:13

I mean, that's, I want them,




00:48:15

to have that because it doesn't get
distracted, it's constantly vigilant, and




00:48:21

it's not like a human.




00:48:23

It's not gonna get sleepy, it's not gonna
potentially be impaired by drugs or




00:48:27

alcohol, and we know it does a solid job
in certain operating parameters.




00:48:31

On freeways, it's bulletproof.




00:48:33

When you get into non -freeway situations,
that's when it starts to get a little




00:48:37

wonky.




00:48:38

I don't think we're there yet, and I don't
think that we're there yet for a while,




00:48:41

but there's a lot of folks working really
hard on...




00:48:45

and get it dialed in.




00:48:46

I they'll get there eventually.




00:48:49

But I mean, what was I was reading
something about an autonomous vehicle, one




00:48:53

of the Waymo's I think, and they came
around a corner one time and there was a




00:48:56

woman chasing a flock of ducks with a
broom.




00:49:00

And it's like, how do you program that
into your Waymo as you know, what you do




00:49:04

when you encounter a flock of ducks being
chased by a woman with a broom?




00:49:08

You know, so it's just as a human, you're
just like, oh, you just go around.




00:49:11

But how do you program that into a
computer?




00:49:15

Yeah, and it's funny you mentioned that
because one of the things that Tesla had




00:49:19

mentioned when they first announced the
semi, it's an interesting idea, but they




00:49:22

haven't really talked about much was the
concept that you could actually have like




00:49:26

three electric trucks, but one driver
essentially, where they would be the first




00:49:30

two would be kind of falling.




00:49:31

And that in theory kind of makes sense.




00:49:32

And you kind of get maybe the best of both
worlds, but it still seems like that's a




00:49:37

ways off.




00:49:37

And there is, um, especially with long
haul, at least talking to people, there




00:49:41

still seems to be whether.




00:49:43

Even when you take charging outside of it,
there's kind of the loading and unloading




00:49:46

and there's still an element of human
labor required with that.




00:49:49

So it kind of makes sense to have a
driver.




00:49:51

And obviously in those kinds of more
dangerous situations, but yeah, if that's




00:49:55

really, if you can get autonomy for that
and charging to that point, then it does




00:49:59

kind of make sense that maybe you can get
to like three trucks and one driver, uh,




00:50:04

which is an interesting idea.




00:50:06

It still seems like a ways out, but do you
see that as being a realistic possibility




00:50:10

or.




00:50:14

I don't know how much exactly I can say on
that one because some of the conversations




00:50:17

I've had about that issue were internal
when I was working on the topic at one of




00:50:22

my previous employers and with others
inside the industry.




00:50:26

I will say that by and large the challenge
is latency, which means the time it takes




00:50:33

from the signal to travel from one to the
other and whether it's going through a




00:50:38

tower or a satellite.




00:50:40

And so if you talk about freeway speeds,
70 miles per hour, and if you have a




00:50:45

latency of half a second, how far would
that vehicle travel in that half a second?




00:50:50

And if the signal is just that much late,
potentially you have the vehicle doing




00:50:54

things you don't want it to do.




00:50:56

So it's a difficult one to overcome
because physics says that a signal can




00:51:02

only travel so fast through the Earth's
atmosphere.




00:51:08

For sure.




00:51:08

And while it's controversial, I think that
is always one of the areas that Tesla and




00:51:13

Waymo actually have been really good about
is having so much of the thinking, whether




00:51:17

it's them or someone else or a Chinese
company that comes up with it.




00:51:21

I don't know.




00:51:22

But like, I do think that core concept of
having so much of the actual thinking and




00:51:26

processing being done in the car versus
being sent somewhere else and then, or




00:51:31

being remotely done just inherently
removes a lot of that.




00:51:34

I think that's a great fallback or.




00:51:36

some safety elements to it, but I mean,
we, we see so many times that cell towers




00:51:41

or other things happen where they go down.




00:51:43

And at the end of the day, that car is
moving down the road and has to make the




00:51:46

decision.




00:51:47

So that.




00:51:48

something stopped in front of me I need to
stop and that vehicle needs to make that




00:51:52

decision without having to go back to the
central computer and say should I stop?




00:51:57

Right.




00:51:58

Or is this, yeah, what is this, what is
this thing I'm seeing, shooing a bunch of




00:52:02

ducks across the road?




00:52:03

Should I just keep driving?




00:52:04

Do I?




00:52:05

Yeah.




00:52:05

I mean, that's exactly that kind of stuff.




00:52:07

Um, so no, I, I understand.




00:52:09

I appreciate you saying what you can about
it.




00:52:11

We've, we've talked a lot about the
charging infrastructure and kind of the




00:52:16

design and the sports of it.




00:52:17

So let's, let's talk a little bit about
the actual trucks and your experience with




00:52:21

kind of designing and working, um, with
companies building those because.




00:52:26

As I said, I've been talking to my friend
who works in the industry.




00:52:28

He definitely is focused more on the long
haul stuff.




00:52:32

And we are seeing obviously for fleets,
it's, and large companies especially have




00:52:36

those, I think more clear business cases.




00:52:41

And then a lot of large companies even
have certain requirements that they're




00:52:46

making around sustainability and other
promises that are kind of accelerating and




00:52:49

kind of pushing them to go towards that
anyway.




00:52:51

But some of the things I've heard that are
kind of against, especially if you're a




00:52:55

smaller operator for a truck is one of the
big things is actually around the weight




00:53:01

and what can electric truck actually move.




00:53:05

I know that traditionally semis have had
like an 80 pound requirement and




00:53:12

that's kind of changed a little bit with
here in the U S I think they increased it




00:53:17

to 82 pounds if it's electric or
something.




00:53:21

If it's got some sort of a zev or reduced
emissions drivetrain, I believe natural




00:53:27

gas falls into that as well.




00:53:28

So if you've got that, or in the hydrogen,
so they get a two ton dispensation.




00:53:35

Which is something, but especially once
you're talking around a megawatt hour of




00:53:40

batteries, it could only be maybe a fifth
of that.




00:53:45

So I, uh, but I mean, obviously diesel
engines are super heavy, uh, carrying all




00:53:50

that fuel has it's there.




00:53:51

It's not a completely one or the other
there.




00:53:54

It's I think closer than most people
realize, but I am kind of just curious if




00:53:57

there's any of that you can kind of talk
about or share around the practical




00:54:01

applications and.




00:54:02

how much of a difference weight actually
plays into the effectiveness of electric




00:54:08

semi trucks.




00:54:09

So weight is definitely an issue.




00:54:11

The initial battery electric trucks were
heavier.




00:54:14

I believe the Tesla Semi is still heavier
than a traditional diesel ICE.




00:54:21

But I think we're getting there.




00:54:22

Like I said, the gravimetric and
volumetric density of batteries continues




00:54:26

to come down, as well as price.




00:54:28

So you have all of these slopes from
technology and price that are headed the




00:54:32

right direction.




00:54:33

So we'll get to the point where they're
lighter and have just as much power.




00:54:38

power on board, if not more.




00:54:41

And we already see cases where it's
cheaper by far to operate electric trucks.




00:54:50

If you have runs that are 100 miles or
less or 150 miles or less, and you're




00:54:56

running electric trucks versus the diesel,
it's cheaper.




00:54:58

So the question I'll ask you to ask your
friend who's involved in long haul.




00:55:05

is that when the industry moved from
horses and trailers to gasoline trucks,




00:55:12

did they still take the gasoline trucks to
the barn to feed them hay and rub them




00:55:17

down?




00:55:18

The answer is no.




00:55:19

They changed the way they operated, right?




00:55:22

And so when you're changing from a diesel
truck to a battery electric truck,




00:55:27

you have to change the way you operate.




00:55:29

Slightly, not totally, but you have to
take into account your percentage of




00:55:34

charge when the truck returns, the
scheduling of drivers to complete certain




00:55:39

routes, and how far they're gonna go with
that route on that particular day, and




00:55:43

what the charge rate of the truck is, and
how much power it's got on board.




00:55:47

You have to know these things.




00:55:48

We have the ability to track all this
information.




00:55:51

you have the ability of a dispatcher to
say choose from four trucks and say, okay,




00:55:55

this one needs to go 200 miles.




00:55:59

And, you know, I've only got one of the
trucks that's capable of doing that right




00:56:03

now, because that one's at 95 % steady
charge.




00:56:05

So go take that one.




00:56:07

We'll put this other truck on this route.




00:56:09

You know, that's those things are doable
and capable of being done on the today's




00:56:16

with today's technology.




00:56:23

As we wrap up the first part of our
conversation, we want to extend our




00:56:26

deepest thanks to Rustam Kocher for
joining us and sharing his profound




00:56:30

insights into the electrification of the
trucking industry, the challenges and




00:56:34

triumphs of implementing the megawatt
charging standard, along with the past,




00:56:38

present and future of electric trucking in
transportation.




00:56:42

Rustam's experience and visionary work
truly illuminate the path forward for




00:56:45

sustainable transport.




00:56:47

I'm really excited to share part two next
week with you as well.




00:56:50

I can't thank Rustam enough.




00:56:51

for his time and what we covered.




00:56:54

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00:56:58

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00:57:01

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00:57:18

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00:57:35

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00:57:39

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00:57:43

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00:57:50

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00:57:54

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