Tom Moloughney from State of Charge

[00:00:02] listeners. Today I'm excited to share with you this episode with Tom Moloughney of the State of Charge podcast, the co-host of batteries included podcast and now the founder of EVChargingStations.com.

[00:00:19] Tom and I had a great conversation about what got him into EVs along with some of the different experiences that he's had and he wants to share with

[00:00:27] soon to be EV owners as well. Thanks for having me here, it's a pleasure to be on your show. Tom, I have a really good feeling that the likelihood that people who watch and listen to our podcast

[00:00:40] have probably already come across your channel and know what you do but real quickly can you just give an overview about how you got into actually just into EVs

[00:00:50] and then how that led to the formation of the State of Charge. Sure, so you know my entry into this EV space is an interesting one.

[00:01:00] I owned a restaurant in Makloon or Jersey for almost 30 years and I was always interested in alternative fuel vehicles. I always figured at some point we're going to be transitioning with gas. What would we be using, you know for a while I thought it would be hydrogen.

[00:01:17] But I was always interested in electric vehicles because I know people that made had made home built cars and I know they worked. It was just a matter of how far would they go and how quick can you recharge them?

[00:01:29] So back in 2008, I found this online application. It's a do you want to drive an electric car? That sounds interesting. So I filled it out. It was BMW had this pilot program where they were going to be making about 500 electric cars.

[00:01:46] They used a mini Cooper as the base. They called it the mini E. They were looking for people to lease these for a year and drive it and kind of report back to them on what they liked, but they didn't like it was a pilot was a learning experience for BMW.

[00:02:03] It was a good idea and I lived in one of the few areas that they offered this in the country. It was only available in a small New York New Jersey region and also in a certain area of California.

[00:02:13] And I lived in New Jersey, so I was in that area filled it out and I forgot about it. And then if anybody year later I got an email from BMW saying hey you've been accepted do you want to be in this program?

[00:02:24] Then I think about it. So I wanted to do this because yeah, I didn't know where was the EV even good wasn't even going to be able to go up a hill you know like was it going to be this week thing like 50 horse power that like you know,

[00:02:37] I was wondering when you stepped on the accelerator but I said yeah, I think I like to do this. This should be fun. So I entered the program and immediately when I got it I was like this is freaking amazing like this thing is so much fun to drive it's deadly silent.

[00:02:52] It's got instant torque it's it's unlike anything I've driven before it's a mini Cooper so it handles really well. It's like this little rocket you know on wheels and I was kind of blown away and I'm like holy crowd like this is what I want to drive like I want to drive electric vehicles.

[00:03:09] And at the time I wasn't doing anything in the space as far as like reporting or writing or blogging nothing like that. So then about four months after I got the cars are okay, this is I'm going to drive electric cars whether I have to make my own but this is so cool never going to gas stations so I put a solar array on my roof.

[00:03:29] And nine kilowatt solar array so I said I'm going to make my own fuel is what I'm going to do. So then a month or two after I found Facebook group that was only for the people in this mini group. So I joined the Facebook group and it was a great resource to share information like some of the online forms still are for electric vehicle owners. It's a learning experience most people it's their first EV.

[00:03:52] So sure these groups are very helpful. I'm sure you've learned stuff online and groups and so forth. So I learned that some of the people in this mini group started blogs and they're like I'm I'm blogging about life within electric car and I said that's kind of a cool idea.

[00:04:08] Like maybe people are interested in this so I started a blog and I started writing about my experience living within electric car. Now, don't forget this 2009 early 2009.

[00:04:18] There were no electric car's material the leaf hadn't come yet the vault hadn't come yet the Tesla Roadster was just starting to be delivered but yeah 110 thousand dollars.

[00:04:28] It was a unicorn at that point. Yeah exactly so so and at the time nobody even gave Tesla you know a

[00:04:37] A chance and hell I've ever making it you know, but anyway even Elon didn't think at that time it was going to make it which he said in many interviews like yeah I thought for sure in 2009 like we this was we were going belly up any event.

[00:04:52] I started blogging my blogs got really popular a lot of people started reading from around the world. I started getting noticed by some of the news media they started asking me to do interviews I was in the New York Times the Wall Street Journal.

[00:05:05] I'm a whole bunch of national magazines and articles so then I started getting asked to write for like some websites hey would you like to write a guest article about what it's like the liberal electric car because we don't know anybody that has an electric car.

[00:05:19] So I started writing in my record steam to do well and I started to get more and more invitation so I started writing regularly for a few sites and.

[00:05:28] All the while I still on my restaurant but then I started getting asked by automakers if I would do consulting on electric vehicles so because they were just looking for people that had experience with them.

[00:05:40] I did a few consulting gigs for some of the major automakers and I was like hey you know I can you know I might be able to make some money doing this and things progressed and I got more more interested in electric vehicles and I said you know I want to I want to figure out how to make a career out of this I started writing regularly.

[00:05:57] And then I got to the point where I said you know I this is what I want to do so I sold my restaurant after 29 years owner and I went full time into EVs and I was like.

[00:06:08] I still don't even know what I'm going to do yet am I going to be a writer am I going to do consulting at the time I had some infrastructure companies that I did some consulting for and.

[00:06:18] I started doing chargers reviews I had chargers that I was like let me and I know they're EVs we can get into why I call chargers even though they're not technically chargers but.

[00:06:31] I started doing some reviews and they seem to be really popular people were like that's great like nobody out there's telling us which ones are good and bad.

[00:06:38] So I started doing that regularly and that kind of developed into my niche where I report on all things EV but the thing that I really is is close to my heart is explaining.

[00:06:50] And I'm really looking forward to charging equipment and had a charge your EV to people so there's a million people out there doing reviews on EVs and I still do reviews on on electric vehicles and so forth but.

[00:07:02] I really focused in on was reviewing charging equipment so I started this YouTube channel called state of charge and that's primarily what I do and I do range tests and I do a DC fast charging analysis and all that.

[00:07:14] That all works well but what I really do is charge charge charging equipment reviews and I think it's been very helpful to people new to the business new to EVs where they're like okay I got this great EV now.

[00:07:27] What what charge do I get I don't know what's a good charger versus a bad charger and hopefully I'm helping them figure that out.

[00:07:36] Yeah I think that's an excellent summer and it's funny you mentioned the mini Cooper or the electric mini Cooper because I believe it was around that time and I don't know if this was offered on the east coast as well.

[00:07:47] But BMW also played around with a electric BMW one series and that I know they were doing kind of test drives and I think very limited leases in the Bay Area.

[00:07:58] I happen to be down visiting when they were doing just randomly like a test drive event of them right off one of the peers and I drove that thing it one looked cooler than the base one series because I had this bullet in the front because it looked like what would normally be like.

[00:08:15] Turbo charger or something was there because of the batteries and I drove it and I was like oh my god yeah I know a Tesla but.

[00:08:24] These only ams got figured out this is going to they're just going to build these I'm going to buy one because this thing is so much fun to drive great power.

[00:08:32] And maybe a few months after that it was just like it never happened and I have yet to ever see electric one series again and it was phenomenal it was such a fun guy. I think the range may have only been like 150 miles or something but.

[00:08:49] At the time I thought it was the greatest thing and shortly after that never thought again I know the electric mini program continue a little bit after that but I don't know if you ever got a chance to drive one of those or see those.

[00:09:00] So yeah long story now.

[00:09:04] It actually did materialize it was called the BMW active a and it was a retro for one series and the bulge on the hood was exactly what you said because the battery block they had to put batteries all over wasn't just one battery pack because they were retro fitting a car there are batteries in the transmission tunnel and there was a big battery block under the front hood.

[00:09:24] So it's called the BMW active in it was offered in a certain number of areas northern California and southern California and then in the same area that the mini e was available here on the east coast so.

[00:09:36] That was BMW second generation of prototype electric vehicles never signed to be bought so what happened was everyone that was in the mini e program got first dibs on an activity if they wanted to lease one.

[00:09:51] And then they they they made more activities they made 1100 of them so they had extra so they did offered is a leech you could have least one if you would have followed up with your dealership and asked them questions about it so they put 1100 of mouth there I had one I drove up for two and a half years I drove mind about 75,000 miles.

[00:10:11] And I was the first person to get it now BMW because at that time I'd become very well known with the mini e for doing all these news articles and everything other people in the mini e program.

[00:10:26] I was probably the highest profile person because I had done a lot of news reporting and BMW used to take me around to these events so I could talk about electric mobility as a customer not as a BMW representative.

[00:10:38] So they asked me they said we want you to be the very first handover of the active e and the CEO BMW is going to hand you the keys.

[00:10:46] We're going to do a big hand over ceremony at BMW headquarters news is going to be there and all this stuff so I should sure you'll drive your mini e in you'll park it you'll give us the keys then we'll give you the keys to the active video make a speech and you'll drive away which is what we did.

[00:11:01] So the interesting thing about that is so I least the BMW active e that was in January of 2012.

[00:11:12] So that was the first electric BMW offered to the public ever you know they had made experimental BMWs before now the mini Cooper was a mini it's not a BMW so.

[00:11:27] Tom Alageny is the very first person in BMW history to Lisa purchase an all electric BMW and that'll never change and and they actually had a little section in the BMW museum over in Munich on this with pictures of me getting the keys of it and everything so.

[00:11:46] It's interesting that you brought up that car because I there's a piece of history that I'm involved with with that car and that's I'm the first customer to ever get an electric BMW. So between the two I mean.

[00:11:59] I mean technically at that time many was owned by BMW already right still are yeah yeah yeah now between the two which one did you like more.

[00:12:09] It's hard to say because they both had different characters the mini he was a very rudimentary it was like a home built car.

[00:12:16] You know the real quickly with all third party components it wasn't BMW's tech you know they they had basically AC propulsion which was a company out in California they had the power train and all this stuff so.

[00:12:28] They it was a Frankenstein car we used to call because it was cobbled together with all these parts but it was just a blast to drive and it was my first EV so it'll always hold a place in my heart now the activity.

[00:12:41] It was much more polished it had a thermal management system that many had no thermal management so some of the batteries you get really hot and the winter they get really cold.

[00:12:49] The many the activity had a liquid thermal management system it had you know much nicer more plush interior software ride a wider cabin it kind of looked really cool as you mentioned you know one series you know so.

[00:13:06] I'm not going to pit one against the other they both my you know I I hold them both close to my heart because they're my first two electric vehicles that were never available for sale they were they were they were designed only to be prototypes but I love them both in their own unique way if you made me if you put a gun to my head I'd probably take the mini over it because my first electric car and it was just such a blast to drive the mini he was was faster than the activity.

[00:13:32] I don't really okay interesting I think that is probably where I originally came across some of your writings and said was some of the reporting you did on the mini but I guess I either didn't realize or it forgot and I also had an activity.

[00:13:46] Yeah, I had a blog about that to the active e-blocks spot I think was it. Yeah, I guess segue a little bit to what you're covering now more. I think let's talk about state of charge and you've actually had some really interesting.

[00:14:10] Products to kind of review and cover the past few months ranging from the new Tesla charger that you seem to be pretty impressed with or at least last I'd heard.

[00:14:19] To even I think it's also been really interesting to see some of the charging discrepancies you've had with cars and the one that kind of comes to mind was like the lyric.

[00:14:29] I think it's a great experience between what Kyle experience what you got what you experienced and kind of figure out some of the issues with that. But let's kind of kick it off with just the state of level two charging in general.

[00:14:41] What you've been seeing and maybe some of for anyone listening any tips and kind of recommendations for anyone out in the market right now.

[00:14:51] Yeah, so you know the one thing is that all level two charging equipment isn't created equal and and you know very high level advice would be please don't go to Amazon and just search eV charger and then click lowest to highest price.

[00:15:09] You will get garbage and a lot of people do that for Amazon and I know why they do that because we're so conditioned let's say you're going to buy you know a tape measure you know like like you might search lowest to highest because you're like look I'm going to.

[00:15:24] Anyway in in in in in any year so why should I buy the 40 dollar tape measure when there's one for nine ninety nine and that's not a bad idea but when you're buying charging equipment.

[00:15:34] It's a different animal here and there's a lot of very low quality cheap equipment mostly getting dumped in from Asia.

[00:15:42] That just it's garbage and it's not going to last and you know if you're lucky it'll just break you know won't cause a problem where melting the pins on your car and you need a new charge in let install for $1500 or fire in your house.

[00:16:00] Those two reasons alone are enough but I don't I mean people don't realize it.

[00:16:08] Yeah sorry to talk over you that's the biggest issue people they just don't you know they don't realize that that there's serious safety issues with with charging it's perfectly safe if you do it correctly.

[00:16:22] But if you vary from doing things properly you know there's a lot of power being fed to your car it's not like a lamp or you know ceiling fan you know pulling you know half a kilowatt you know that there's a lot of power that goes through these things and that's that's when you have problems.

[00:16:40] I think that's spot on and I think one thing to add to that and you know this is like even though we've both been kind of following in this industry for like I mean you probably didn't now longer than that but like pretty much about a decade.

[00:16:56] And this is still kind of the early days I wanted to think that's been work out lately is actually converting or we have a night we have our daily driver is a Tesla Model Y long range V.

[00:17:08] But we also have a 1987 Land Rover Defender 90 that we're working on converting to electric it's got 3.9 liter V8 it's an awesome vehicle. We live in Central Oregon so there's mountains and everything it's great for heights and so on but.

[00:17:23] It is wild to me this is not as true with charging because you do have some of the kind of the US electrical code and standards but with actual EV conversions I went to a course just for fun this past your down Phoenix it was great course and we're actually going to have one of the a couple of the people from that speak later in a month or so but.

[00:17:41] It's still the world west there's like no specifics as where a lot of these retro fits or like how exactly the wiring has to be done and I think you add.

[00:17:53] That to what you're talking about with a lot of these kind of lower quality charters put on the market and you kind of do have like the perfect storm of.

[00:18:01] These probably not well documented not I mean not everything for sure is going to you, I listed but all these things just kind of get on the market. Electricians.

[00:18:11] Good or bad maybe this is the first one they install so there's like so many different variables and points at where this can go wrong that the more you can do to save your essentially spending a little bit more more money to save yourself a lot of money down the road.

[00:18:28] And headache really to make sure you have a safety exactly when when do you usually charge your car.

[00:18:36] ABC I'm always be charging but I know what you mean at night overnight yeah overnight okay when's the last time that you want to have some kind of problem when you're sleeping so it's like you know you're up you know in your bedroom sleeping and down in your garage you have this device that's pulling you know 48 amps you know.

[00:18:58] 11 kilowatts of power the rest of your house is only consuming three or four kilowatts of power at the time just a power your refrigerator and some things you know.

[00:19:09] So you you're EV is pulling three times the power three to four times power of the rest of your house and you know you've got shady equipment you know without you know or.

[00:19:20] somebody install it that didn't understand that they had a torque all the connections to a specific torque rating that's listed in the owners manual so they just grabbed their arrangement. Okay, that's good.

[00:19:30] That's good you know and and it's not good because those connections are going to get up to 150 160 degrees while the car's charging and then if you live in a cold weather area like Oregon after the car's done charging they're going to drop down and maybe 20 or 30 degrees.

[00:19:46] Then you're going to plug it in and you're going to go up to 140 degrees that that enormous power variation causes the screws to actually back out.

[00:19:56] And now you get arcing and it's it's you have to have a qualified person work on this and it's one of the reasons why I partnered with this this outfit called Cumerat and off your herd of them but they specialize in EV charging and.

[00:20:09] And all their installers you know not to give them a plug but that's the reason is there trained on EV charging installations and equipment and they know to follow all best practices for EV charging and yeah I'm not saying use Cumerat just use somebody who understands EV charging equipment.

[00:20:30] And that they're they're not just going to go it's tight enough which you get you know we even license electricians do that I you know before I have an electrician install my charging equipment I'd ask him do you do this frequently you know do you use a torque wrench when you tighten the connections I ping them on that and then here's another one you're not going to use aluminum wire right because the aluminum wires cheaper but aluminum wire is not none of the charging equipment suppliers.

[00:20:56] As a certified aluminum wire to be used on their product so you got it pull copper because it expands and contracts too much aluminum wire. It's funny you should say I'm I'm like.

[00:21:08] Is that I almost would have sworn because it stood out to me but I'm probably wrong that the test of charger you said you could use aluminum wire but I'm oh yeah specifically says in the owners menu do not use I didn't needless to say.

[00:21:21] Yeah but I always wanted somebody's and I was like remember like when I read it it stood out I must be thinking of something else but. Yes copper only which makes sense I'm I'm totally with you.

[00:21:33] But I think real one final thing to cover on that do you still have the 1450 plug that you're showing me before the before we start recording here I think that's also great example I guess for anyone listening. Tom you want to give a little something.

[00:21:51] So I have a bunch of these actually do you see this is a name of 1450 outlet and as you could see it's not great shape this one here is made by Levitton and you can buy it for about 10 bucks.

[00:22:03] Now there's other name of 1450 outlets that look exactly the same as this that costs a hundred dollars one for instance is made by a brand called Hubble and so how come you've got these two outlets that look identical for the most part the Hubble thicker.

[00:22:19] But the front of it would look he's same and it it's supposed to be able to work just as fine. Why is one cost ten bucks in the other cost a hundred dollars.

[00:22:27] It's got to be a difference there right or is Hubble just a greedy company that's trying to you know get more money out of you and then that it's the former not the latter.

[00:22:37] There's some very low quality outlets out there and it's one of the reasons why I just recommend everybody hard work they're charging equipment but I understand some people prefer buying a plug in unit, but if you do.

[00:22:49] By a high quality industrial great outlet now Levitton advertisers this doesn't dust real great anybody can say it's industrial great so that's a problem because don't you can just read the.

[00:23:02] For anyone listening there he just put up a 1450 outlet that now has a whole burnt through it that you could probably put a ping pong ball through. Yeah, it's very concerning.

[00:23:13] Needless to say but that is a hundred percent but I think you bring up a great point there Tom it's like usually when people ask me I realize it's usually more money but they can do it just go for the EF.

[00:23:26] I always come charges to but yes technically the EVSE. But I get it sometimes situation dictates that you just have a 1415 your garage great replace it don't you replace it and yeah.

[00:23:40] It's less to hard wire of a charger because then you don't have the hundred dollar expense of the of the outlet you know and it's just a better it's a safer installation and the.

[00:23:52] And so when people basically say well why does this happen with the cheap ones these are certified for use and the but the problem is they're not.

[00:24:01] Up for the duty cycle of electric vehicle charging right these will work just fine if you plug something into it every couple of weeks and you use that device whatever it is for an hour.

[00:24:12] But with EV charging you're pulling the maximum current that this is rated to power to power. Sometimes for six seven eight hours continuously three four five times a week so it just cannot sustain that I'm telling if you buy a levitton out like the support 1550.

[00:24:29] It's going to melt it's just a matter of when it and it depends on how.

[00:24:35] How much you use how many hours continuously how much power your pull through it if you're pulling the maximum 40 amps through one of these and you have a big battery with a big evi and you drive a lot.

[00:24:46] That guy's going to melt within the first year and I have dozens and dozens of my followers that have sent me pictures some almost burned down their house over it. It's just not worth it by good quality equipment.

[00:24:57] Yeah, and I think just when final thing to say on just to think about is like as you said you're doing your charging a night you're drawing way more power from the EV and.

[00:25:08] For any naysayers that are listening this is totally safe it just has to be done right this there's a reason that house fires have started from all sorts of things in the past whether be dry or lent to.

[00:25:19] Other sorts of sure is you just have to make sure it's done right and once it's done right it's a it's a pretty much do set it and forget it but.

[00:25:28] Another way to look at is essentially at night you're running two to three commercial welders while your car is charging I mean it's a lot of power.

[00:25:36] Yeah, exactly for an extended period I think that really is the big thing as opposed other intermittent things that a lot of this 240s are designed for. Because the hours from the heat generated.

[00:25:48] longer you run it the hotter the it gets if you just run for short period let it cool down plugging in again.

[00:25:53] You're not going to generate that heat but the problem is the four five six seven hours of continuous load that thing just gets hotter and hotter and hotter and the connections can't handle it. And now that we've scared everyone listening what.

[00:26:07] What are some of the chargers that you right now are kind of most impressed with and really are the evs is that you've really found to be the most durable and just kind of best. Case for a lot of people who are in the market looking for one.

[00:26:23] Yeah, so you know that there's so many and I always tell people there's really no one size fits all you need to.

[00:26:31] There's some questions that need to be answered for me to tell you what the best chargers and actually I have a website that I didn't even mention it to you chase a new website that I'm just launching it's called evtcharging stations.com and on that I'm building it's not available yet and I haven't really talked about this website because it's not ready to show everybody but I'm building a tool on that that.

[00:26:53] It's going to ask you 10 questions and based on that I'm going to give you my top three recommendations on chargers that to buy so I'm because so many people some emails saying Tom I just bought a BMW I thought I for and I live in this area and this.

[00:27:09] Please tell me what charge goodbye and I can't respond to the emails because I get overwhelmed with them sometimes I get 20 30 emails every day from. I'm going to that's a good lay up for another plug for you.

[00:27:23] You know, but I'm going to tell you about the batteries included podcast I've been listening to with you, Calcana and Martin Alamara Kim Martin yeah there you go great thing for any listeners you really should listen that I've really enjoyed it.

[00:27:37] All of them are very entertaining and great on kind of eV news, but this is the exact thing I remember hearing in one of the last episodes your time about how you're getting so many emails about this and I can. Understand I've been.

[00:27:49] I'm going to get this call but that the nothing gets that it's it's going to be busy them board so I think people think I'm avoiding them exactly because I don't respect it.

[00:27:59] I just get it I just get so many emails that I can't keep up with it and I feel big because I always used to respond to people that reach out to me.

[00:28:05] I feel like if people took the time to ask me a question I should honor them with a response but I can't anymore so I'm like how do I deal with this how do I help people so I said I'm going to make this tool and I'm just going to direct people to the charger recommendation tool and.

[00:28:19] That's great. Yeah, but you asked me I haven't answered the question yet about what which chargers so some of my top chargers today that the new Tesla universal wall connector.

[00:28:29] Which is so cool and I'll show you really quick and and cool thing about this was Tesla only sent it to me I am the only person that Tesla sent this to which was an honor.

[00:28:40] So regular Tesla connector the next connector but it also charges CCS or not CCS J1772 of.

[00:28:49] The cool people's you press a little button here and j1772 adapter attaches to the top of the Tesla adapter and now it's tether you can't get it off so you can't steal it but this new universal charger can charge any VV sold in North America.

[00:29:06] Which is really good so that's one of my top recommendation I also recommend the Emporia charger which is a really good charger the Grizzly which is a low cost 40 amp very robust charger.

[00:29:17] Even the charge point home flex behind me here's a very good unit it's pricey but it's very good unit those are some of my top recommendations but again.

[00:29:25] I need to know have a lot of questions you can amount it outside you live in a cold weather area do you live in a really hot weather area.

[00:29:32] How many amps do you have available in your house you know so there's there's a lot of questions there's no one size fits on and I think that also speaks really well to your channel and some of the stuff you do because I.

[00:29:44] I was like okay he's doing EV charger reviews I guess that makes sense there's a need for that how do you really charge an EV and then you're plunging in why are you doing all these things like okay now that that totally makes sense and is definitely legit that like these are the things that these are exposed to.

[00:29:58] And need to be designed for so yeah I understand why you're getting so many emails about it I'm glad you're making this website for people to go to and for anyone that has questions I highly recommend it one thing before we change topics I am really curious on how you've been liking the forward home charging V2G V2L.

[00:30:21] I'm going to have a lot of questions about the information and I want to say issues but just difficulties with setting up a system like that so I'm just curious if there.

[00:30:33] For one your overview thoughts on the process and then to if you've been using a lot of what you think of it.

[00:30:40] What you're talking about is I have the Ford charge station pro which is an 80 amp charge level two charger but this is a bidirectional charger it can accept power as well as deliver to the vehicle and then if you if you have your forward lightning and you buy and you have this charger and then you buy what they call the home integration kit.

[00:30:58] Then you can actually use a truck to power your house which I have ahead and install that have a very comprehensive video on the installation and how it works with the different power flowing everything.

[00:31:07] So the one thing that I can say is you know has it been seamless no there's been issues but I expected that because this is the first generous just the first time your EV could charge your power your house.

[00:31:21] So I knew going into this now is one of the first people to get this and have it installed I knew there was going to be issues I feel bad for some of the retail customers that did it thinking like yeah this was just going to rock well I think they went back exactly to exactly the same like this like time out wild west the whole V2G of that whole space is still.

[00:31:41] I think it's going to be for a while early days yeah it's going to be rocky for a while for all the products out there and so yeah I had some issues with that but.

[00:31:50] I've gotten into work I had something needed to be repaid got fixed on but it works you know when I plug my truck in if I have a power out of its power and that I can deliver about 10 kilowatts nine nine point six kilowatts in a house and I at works you know it's just.

[00:32:07] There's some glitches still there's still some software glitches but pretty much every time I needed to use it it worked.

[00:32:15] That's great but I have had to fix it had a problem so yeah and then I mean once again I think it's a really cool technology and there's definitely some use cases for it but it's not a plug and play solution and that's not essentially for its problem either.

[00:32:27] I just don't think a lot of people realize the complexity of doing a system like that essentially.

[00:32:33] The way and you can probably even do a bare job as grand this then I can but because of how the most home outlets or home panels are designed for flow of energy unless you already have like a solar system set up.

[00:32:47] There's a lot of things that kind of have to go in to make sure that the panels used to get energy back back through it in that direction. But I think it is a technology long term that has a lot of really cool uses.

[00:33:00] Yeah there's there's some hurdles but I mean in theory the way forward has it set up you know it's it's it's circumvents any issue like that what you brought up because do a little sub panel and that's the panel that has all the circuits on that you're going to pass.

[00:33:16] It's just there's still the biggest problem right now in my opinion is still the software needs to get armed out which I totally expect it to happen.

[00:33:26] There's still some software glitches but the hardware's all works the transfer switch you get isolated from the grid boom you know an a minute or so the trucks power in the house. But you know it's it's Jen wants the first one of these things out there.

[00:33:41] And I'm not trying to shoot it down by means because I know you already and I'm just speaking from my personal experience my house was built in the 70s.

[00:33:51] And it is only a hundred amp panel so I would have to have a few other things done to it to really get it to that. I'm sorry. Exactly.

[00:34:02] I guess that's what I'm talking to is a lot of people don't fully appreciate understand that and how come that is.

[00:34:07] But I'm going to do that anyway when I probably puts a learn our house it's just one of those things that just to be aware of it's not an impossibility but it's not. Unless you have a newer home it's probably not going to be as straightforward as.

[00:34:21] It's going to be expensive too. Yeah, you know it's going to be very expensive so and and that what makes it even harder to say you should do it was the lightning for instance that you need to be able to power the system.

[00:34:33] Also has pro power on board which. Can deliver the same 9.6 kilowatts. It's just you have to run a whole bunch of extension cords right or to power your stuff and then you can't power things like your lights because they're all hardwired through your house.

[00:34:48] You could run your refrigerator and things that are important from the truck so you already have the power so you say well I can kind of get through a power outage doing it this way.

[00:34:58] Set up some portal right for free or I can spend $12,000 and have the system and worry about the software working in our self-aclid. It's it's it's a tough financial decision at this point.

[00:35:11] Yeah, I think all this stuff we've talked about has been great but it is also been in the level in the realm of level two charging. It has all been about usually people who own their own home or have a rental where it's kind of easy access.

[00:35:24] I'd love to kind of hear a little more about your thoughts on where you see the future of level two and even level one charging for maybe. People who are in kind of multi family homes or even any.

[00:35:36] I've seen some out there but I'd be curious to see your thoughts on like once just for like street parking solutions like that. If there any you've seen or what you think maybe some of the solutions for that space might be sure.

[00:35:49] Well, I was an Amsterdam recently and it's just a cool thing was they had the whole there were all over the place they had like parking meters.

[00:35:57] They had elected car chargers all over the place and in in in a lot of places in Europe they have that we don't really have a lot of street charging here in the US.

[00:36:05] I know there were a few small pilot programs years ago I remember but we really don't have that yet we need it here for sure especially in the cities. But you know, we also need.

[00:36:19] Charger ready legislation and with that is you know for like it mandate set new construction be built. With the added capacity in the electrical panels and the conduit installed to ensure to install electric vehicle charging equipment when needed.

[00:36:37] They don't mandate that you put the chargers in immediately because some of the buildings are going to say look nobody lives here nobody has an electric car they're going to you know when the coming years so.

[00:36:46] Having the infrastructure in place so that when you need to hang a charger it's just hanging on the wall pull the cable energize it there you go you have your charger some of the biggest problems we have let's see in some of the cities like I live near New York City is the buildings are so old.

[00:37:02] And it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to trench to bring new cable to the building to do service upgrades on the building to do the interconnection so at least if we start doing all new construction.

[00:37:14] Man to an even single family homes should it should be mandated that there's a 50 amp circuit you know dead end into the garage inside a pat inside a junction box closed off you don't have to make them install the charging equipment.

[00:37:28] But at least have a circuit with it ready to go so somebody buys the house they have an electric car okay good you just need to hang the charger connect the wires are good to go.

[00:37:36] So that I think that's the direction we need to start going in we need to have more charger ready legislation now way back and I think 2014.

[00:37:46] I testified in New York City in front of the housing and transportation board to because Mayor Bloomberg at the time wanted to have a charger ready legislation and we got it passed so New York City for instance already has charger ready legislation in place.

[00:38:03] But we need to have it in all the cities everywhere should have charger ready legislation new parking lots and new multifamily buildings that are installed should have the conduit installed and the aided capacity waiting in the electrical panel so they don't have to do service upgrades and retrench and everything.

[00:38:24] When the time comes that. And the building is occupied by people with the reason they want to charge their cars at home and yeah and I think that's pretty spot on I I've actually just through my previous exposure kind of working commercial solar.

[00:38:38] It's a similar thing where like it's very it's not would it be adding a cost yes but the cost is so insignificant to help make the house.

[00:38:48] Solar and EV ready that it also has just a huge in my opinion selling or even running opportunity for whoever down the road that all then they have to do is kind of do some wiring and it it sounds simple and it really is but if you have to do it retroactively it.

[00:39:05] Increase at the cost and as it's a simple application pretty quickly so it's exponential you know what what it's cool doesn't seem like it is but it definitely.

[00:39:15] It's incredibly much more expensive but you still have builders pushing back on these regulations because to them even let's say both a building that cost. So 400,000 dollars to build they don't even they don't want to spend the extra.

[00:39:30] 2000 dollars on I don't think that much especially if you're doing like a large development it's like in my experience like closer to 150 it's like pretty let's say you're trenching it's a trenching to a parking area you know and you got to put in front of it on the ground but while you're there doing all this site.

[00:39:48] It's not that expensive when you have to. So I cut the pavement dig it up my got it costs so much more so yeah but we should have this it should but we should have more charger ready legislation all new construction should be mandated to have the.

[00:40:05] And I think one of the things I'm a big proponent of and obviously kind of this unsaid with your show is how important level to charging is where as much as I love DC fast charging and watching you and Kyle Connor and some of these other people do the.

[00:40:25] Fast charging and all these tests and so at the end of the day there's so like once you kind of know the system and you know where it would it reminds me of is kind of.

[00:40:33] What was the big thing in aviation at least before COVID was instead it was kind of the hub and spoke model and said like going.

[00:40:41] Flying from LA to Frankfurt and then Frankfurt to a smaller airport you'd fly from Santa Barbara or I guess not Santa Barbara in this case but the idea is you'd fly directly instead having to go through this other infrastructure.

[00:40:54] And I think that's totally true with level two is like once you know where you're going has level two charging or you make sure that it's at least even level one charging where you're going like so many of the trips I take now I don't ever have to even use a supercharger.

[00:41:09] Which into itself is a luxury to have the access to the super chargers I'm constantly reminded by some of my friends and others but it requires a little more planning but it saves a lot of money it makes the trip so much easier and not that super turning by means is.

[00:41:24] Stressful or tough it's just like you get there and you never even have to think about dealing with it and I think. While there's a lot and I think goes exactly to the legislation for this so much of the.

[00:41:39] Money and focus goes to like the sexiness if you will of DC fast charging or how necessary that is and it obviously does have a large part to play but. I think it highlights not enough people making this legislation are exposed to let alone driving EVs.

[00:41:54] And that's where the importance of like level two charging or just trying to make it that more common and easier for people will inherently minimize.

[00:42:04] DC the need not only just the need for DC fast charging but like how many people will be using when at a time obviously there will be like holidays and certain things like that but if you can pro actively make it easier for people to use level two charging.

[00:42:16] They skip it completely and I think a lot of people coming from the gasoline world and combustion engine world don't fully appreciate kind of how magical that is everyone kind of thinks about like oh how expensive DC fast chargers are or.

[00:42:29] How much it costs to charge or how long it takes where it's like I rarely have to do that anymore and I'll go a few a couple hundred miles at least.

[00:42:38] From different parts of the state or to other states and everyone have to use a fast charger and that might be a little bit that's maybe I guess me renting a little bit more of a pro EV driver move but something that I think needs to be more of the conversation.

[00:42:52] We do need all levels of charging for sure for sure you know and there's use cases for for all of them and yes we need to level two charging to proliferate and be everywhere like hotel friends every single hotel should have a bank of level two chargers let's face it you know level one charging even works long term parking places and turn parking lots airports airport should have rows and rows of inexpensive level one charging.

[00:43:19] Just a regular wallet. Yeah so I mean when you're parked there for days like you're on a trip in an airport why not be charging on a hundred twenty volts right it's so much less expensive to install so.

[00:43:33] Yeah shopping center shopping malls level two charging is great for that you know so coffee shops you know I mean there's there we need all levels and all speeds of charging really and and you're right.

[00:43:50] That will if level if there was more level two charging that would take some of the stress off the need to have so many DC fast charges but we still need a lot of DC fast charges to travel and also for people that can't charge at home.

[00:44:06] They live in an area that they don't have that ability to charge overnight they need access to fast level DC fast charging so they can in a pinch they could just add 30 40% of their battery get them to the next couple of days.

[00:44:19] For sure I think that does just kind of go back to what we were done about earlier though did reiterate like. On street parking charging needs to be figured out like yeah just the more you can minimize going people that DC fast started for a lot of reasons.

[00:44:33] But I as someone who I mean I guess I can kind of glow but compare to you I'm sure it's nothing I mean I put on 34 thousand miles doing ray trips on my car last year and yeah a good portion of that would have not been possible without DC fast charging.

[00:44:50] But at the same time there were plenty of times it's like you know I'm fast charging but if had there had there been a level two along the way where we got lunch or where we're going to I wouldn't have to charge it all but.

[00:45:04] More charging is better than what we're at right now so I'm I'm for all types of charging I think I think you put a very eloquently and pretty accurately that we need everything. I mean you got it it's coming for sure for sure.

[00:45:16] With that I know your focus kind of has been more around level two chargers but with some of the EVs you've been driving and I guess refresh my memory you had a Rivian but right now what what are the EVs that you have personally you got the F 150 lightning.

[00:45:34] I currently on an F 150 lightning a Rivian R1 S. I had the R1 T and I sold it when my Rivian R1 S came in and bought the R1 S so have a lightning a Rivian R1 S and a Chevy Bolty V.

[00:45:50] Gotcha and of those three what would you say is your favorite daily and kind of makes charging the easiest since they are all CCS. Yeah you don't probably the lightning is my favorite daily driver yeah I love how it drives.

[00:46:07] And that's what I happen when all three vehicles are parked in the driveway of Meredith my wife's name is Meredith she hasn't taken one of them. My first vehicle to jump in is always a lightning and I just the other vehicles are great vehicles like other lightning drives.

[00:46:24] Yeah and I know you've tested like the lyric and a couple other cars recently what. Having such a wide exposure to auto a.m. and how they're approaching level two and DC faster and like what has been your takeaway of where these auto a.m.

[00:46:39] I know you've shared on some of the GM products it I forget what is it they don't have it doesn't show the kill up.

[00:46:47] No, I hate the fact that all the GM cars don't show the state of charge once you get under like like 8% state of charge at the very end when you need it the most.

[00:47:00] Yeah, I'm going to be white knuckle the worried about running away the whole time it shows you the state of charge and then and how many remaining miles you have.

[00:47:08] And then you get down to the end and it just says low like it gives you nothing now you can get that information in your app.

[00:47:17] And on the newer GM vehicles if you are using the integrated navigation system you can see like your remaining state of charge but like.

[00:47:28] So the vehicle knows it knows what the state they are like to believe choose to make it go away from the drivers display I don't want I'm driving I don't want to plug my phone and check my app or whatever so yeah it's it's a puzzling.

[00:47:40] decision that they do and I don't understand it's bizarre that the only company that does this that just doesn't like once the vehicle gets low they decide oh yeah you don't need to know what your state of charge is anymore or how many remaining miles.

[00:47:56] We're just going to tell you it's low like. You already knew that over just behind you yeah like you know if you didn't have white knuckles before that that it blinked to low you're going to be like.

[00:48:08] I don't like you know yeah I feel like you're in a very simple charge. I mean it's really doesn't give you confidence in the system if you like even the car it seems like doesn't know what it's at. With those with that white exposure and that experience what.

[00:48:24] I guess are there any cars that seen out to you right now decides as you said the GM ones that are doing kind of a good job at like just making.

[00:48:34] The transition if it's your first the first you are doing a good job that and then second any kind of feedback or thoughts you have for general automakers and their EV programs.

[00:48:47] Yeah so you know I don't know if there's specific vehicle that I would say this vehicle but what I will say is some manufacturers the starters particular like Tesla and Revian I think do a good job at helping the customer understand EVs like Revian for instance when you're DC fast charging.

[00:49:03] You know it and you're and your charge rate gets derated because the charging station isn't delivering the power it can because maybe it's overheating or the.

[00:49:14] The trucks battery is too hot so it's it's limiting the power it gives you a little warning that says DC fast charging rate lowered you know due to temperature so I love that and I love when they also display how many kilowatts the vehicle is taking at that time.

[00:49:30] Which is I think it's very helpful. I love when some EVs give you battery temperature the Rivians just had a or are going to be having a big software update that that's going to be included in.

[00:49:43] Porsche always did that the tycons always gave you battery temperature and that's useful information to EV owners and I think some of the.

[00:49:53] The existing legacy brands they don't understand that that's very important for people to to view and they don't they don't give it to you so I think that's something that that's some of the manufacturer doing well my lightning when I think is really good what board does is they give you this regenerative breaking coach and it tells you the.

[00:50:12] The percentage every time you take the car down was stop it tells you what's the percentage of stopping that was done with region versus friction breaks.

[00:50:22] So it can coach you to help you maximize your range because every time you stop you want that to say 100% that way you're you're reclaiming as much energy as you can and I love it when the manufacturers do that. Those things like that. Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:39] In the temperature one is an interesting one to mention I think definitely for.

[00:50:45] I guess maybe EV nerds or pro EV drivers it matters a lot do you think that maybe the reason automakers are doing that is it might be concerning or kind of too much information to like someone who's coming from a combustion engine driver there like okay I got to worry about the temperature my battery now.

[00:51:02] Well, there's always been temperature gauges on ice vehicles right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Why remove it for the EV you know.

[00:51:13] But I understand what you're saying yes, I think there are times but you know what if that's the case don't put it front and center put in the info to in somewhere in the settings where people that really want it can pull it up and they can activate it give us the.

[00:51:28] Because the vehicle knows that information give us the option to access it if we want to. No, and I bad I completely agree with for sure. And then I realize we're kind of coming up on the end of time here with.

[00:51:43] I guess I'd be curious to hear a couple things and one is with the current state of DC fast charging what are you kind of hoping to see or what do you think is the answer to kind of solve the current situation.

[00:51:58] And so I think that's the reason why we're talking about the problem with what we're seeing with the public DC fast charges kind of struggling and having issues with trying to get CCS vehicles to. The available prototyping option.

[00:52:14] In my opinion to improve reliability is everybody wants part of this never funding ever want subsidies right for DC fast charging equipment and I'm not necessarily against giving sub to because we need to get this out as quickly as possible. But there has to be strong.

[00:52:32] You know incentives baked into that not incentives is strong like punishment penalties if the equipment doesn't operate properly. You know, and I the way it's currently written it really isn't like you know they talk about up time but there's different ways you can define up time.

[00:52:50] If if if the company just pings the station and the station says hey I'm fine that's considered being up. But then you go to plug in your EV and it doesn't work like it's not interfacing it's not working or it's delivering like 15 kilowatts and you're you're expecting 150 kilowatts.

[00:53:08] That's still up time and we need to do a better job at making sure if companies take public funding for these this infrastructure it has to work as advertised and it has to have an extremely high up time you know better than 95% up time.

[00:53:25] Otherwise you know the company has to repay the the the the fund the federal funds that they got or pay big fine you know it's um that's a big thing because there's too much equipment out there that has been hasn't been service properly isn't working properly.

[00:53:42] People rely on this and and you know you buy this brand new EV your new to EVs your head gas cars are whole life and now the first road trip you take it's a disaster you can't charge because it's broken or whatever reason they're offline.

[00:53:55] You don't want to give the call back and say hell with these EVs, huh, you know they're not ready yet you know and it's unfortunate and that's the case we haven't the most part outside of the Tesla supercharger network.

[00:54:09] It's very spotty at best on reliability and it's a big problem we have to do better.

[00:54:15] For sure, and I think everything is set as pre spot on it's one of the interesting takeaways I had with the recent speaking of the Navi funding recent conversations we had with Lauren McDonald, Evia, Dom.

[00:54:27] He was talking about how like Navi funding long term will be a benefit but it's having a pretty strong short term negative impact.

[00:54:34] Because of how slow the funds are being rolled out in his opinion it's also slowing down any of non-testled chargers from actually putting more chargers into the ground because they're waiting on the money they're waiting on these things because of the delton cost.

[00:54:47] And it's only kind of giving Tesla more of an advantage where they are making money they can just keep rolling them out and in the short term at least it's really not helping the situation with expanding DC fast chargers. And I think.

[00:55:03] I'm sorry, I was going to say that could that could be true you know that could be the case.

[00:55:07] But you know what Tesla isn't Tesla spending their own money for the most part, they're going to get a chunk of the Navi funding too but what they're spending now without that is their own money and nobody stopping other companies from spending their own money.

[00:55:23] But you know it's it's they don't want to when that when you've got this you know giant pool of public funds coming your way you know, so you know I don't feel bad for the companies that are waiting. And they feel like they're being left behind well.

[00:55:38] Or if some of your own money into it and get this thing rolling and then when the never funding comes through use that money also you know.

[00:55:45] I think it was really interesting just hearing from him because like I didn't want to be a conspiracy theorist about it but that kind of been my feeling I mean he'd even mentioned just in his conversations with these companies, though they're like.

[00:55:55] They've kind of slowed down the roll out because now that there's an allotted amount of money and the clear path to it. They're more focused on that than kind of even maintaining but especially adding new stations which I think.

[00:56:08] I think like I said long term, I think will be it'll be more DC faster and but in the interim. For non Tesla drivers it's kind of only making the Tesla supercharger network and that structure.

[00:56:24] More powerful listen and in the first quarter of 2024 there's going to be adapters ready to access that for the for the manufacturers that have already agreed to to integrate the the.

[00:56:39] And then the next connector so you know we're only a few months away from for sure maybe be able to roll up in my lightning to a supercharger and use my adapter and charge away so.

[00:56:50] The other networks are going to feel even more left behind once that happens how sooner you're going to roll up to the supercharger in your boat. Soon as well get a bit of a. As soon as I could not even barely pulls that much.

[00:57:05] Yeah, I'll probably pull in one day at like zero and charge to 100% just to record Tesla owners like being like. Like two hours without going. I want to I know it's somebody. Okay, final question this is something we ask all of our guests.

[00:57:27] In your opinion with your exposure what are some of the innovative ways that industry or government or both can help accelerate the roll out of the views and battery technology in your opinion.

[00:57:41] You know battery technology is an interesting thing and you know I think we need to incentivize more like homegrown battery development here in this country we really do it's going to be an enormous.

[00:57:56] And so we're going to be a very important factor over the next few decades with regards to controlling the industry we can't rely on foreign countries to provide us with our battery tech so I would.

[00:58:10] I would be all in for the government and you know, given away our money again here. And we're going to kind of big program like to subsidize the development of new factories in this country developing new battery tech here.

[00:58:27] It's going to be the wave of the future batteries are going to be powering our vehicles for a long time. I'm not going to say it's the last technology and the grid so you know we right now most of our batteries come from China and you know.

[00:58:43] Our relationship with China can be shaky at times and if it turns takes a turn for the worse in the future and trying to decide hey, why don't give you was batteries anymore.

[00:58:52] You know, let's say we're at some point even in just tariffs or anything exactly so I really think we need to invest heavily in this country and battery technology and I would love to see the government have some sort of a new deal where they put a ton of money aside for companies to.

[00:59:13] Invest in battery development and and manufacturing plants here domestically I think that would be the right thing to do.

[00:59:22] I kind of agree more and I think on that now that's a great place in this I just want to say thanks again Tom it's great to have you on any people listening if you're not already following.

[00:59:33] State of charge or the batteries include podcast or the EV charging stations come up and coming website or you have friends of questions about.

[00:59:43] What charger they should be putting in please reach out to Tom on one of those channels if not even on Twitter I guess now X always a great source to connect with him but Tom thank you so much for being on been really a pleasure and great to finally speak with you.

[00:59:59] Thanks for having me Chase.